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Welcome Saracens?

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castleparknight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 07:50
Ring Fencing cannot take place this season, as it has to be agreed before the season has begun.

I suspect most clubs in the Prem have one or two dodgy deals tucked away somewhere......
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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One For The Ditch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote One For The Ditch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 09:08
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Originally posted by One For The Ditch One For The Ditch wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

A lot of disappointed faces after the World Cup Final. A lot of Saracens players may have been multi millionaires had they won


I would suggest that some of them are already!
 

I'm not sure how many fall into the "multi million" bracket - any evidence to support these statements?

Take a ferret around The Companies House site and then check out the property values of the registered addresses. Good to see that some of the boys have done well for themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Westcoaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 09:09
Calm down , the points deduction is only suspended, so unlikely to be enforced....

Come on Jersey........
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Mark W-J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 09:32
One of the articles I read suggested that, as the review has been carried out by a third party and they have listened to and carefully considered all of the evidence from Saracens before reaching their conclusions, the likelihood of an appeal succeeding is fairly remote.  They would need to prove that the process followed and/or conclusions reached were fundamentally flawed.

[Edit] Here you go:
"Saracens only have the right to seek a review by a new panel, which can only overturn the punishment if it finds there has been a procedural error or the decision was disproportionate or unfair. Given that the panel was chaired by Lord Dyson, a former Justice of the Supreme Court, a legal expert told Telegraph Sport that their chances of success are small."


Edited by Mark W-J - 06 Nov 2019 at 09:35
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Insignificant Tick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 09:39
Law of the Land v PR rules and regs.

PR regs infringe human rights or some such other law, European or otherwise and the law of the land will win every time regardless of what PR say.So Sarries will be found to have not broken any law but be in breach of PR regulations which dont count so Sarries win as points deduction and fine will be unlawful.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dropout22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 09:40
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Some big earners at Sarries who are also Eng squad members - what happens if they need to go to France to maintain their lifestyles? That could hurt the home nations.

It raises the wider issue of the viability of rugby as a spectator sport at top club level.All the Prem teams need large squads of quality professionals. Can these squads be supported via modest ( in some cases) gate receipts, minimal tv revenue and local sponsorship?

How do Sale afford to import a large squad of SA players or indeed Bristol a £1m fullback?

No doubt this debate will run and run but one thing is for sure if the Prem is going to expand it will have to have a better TV deal.

Finally I have no doubt that the decision will be appealed and it may well be that the "special" arrangements found to be legal.
 

Plain and simply through a Backer. In both their cases the academies are in great state.
In regards to the salary cap, the clubs can avoid hitting the ceiling by using the 2 allocated Excluded player slots or by promoting via their academy where they can write off £30,000 of the players salaries should they join the club before their 18th birthday.

The Saracens ruling has been appealed so at this stage they're not on -26 points.
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Mark W-J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 10:17
Originally posted by Insignificant Tick Insignificant Tick wrote:

Law of the Land v PR rules and regs.

PR regs infringe human rights or some such other law, European or otherwise and the law of the land will win every time regardless of what PR say.So Sarries will be found to have not broken any law but be in breach of PR regulations which dont count so Sarries win as points deduction and fine will be unlawful.  

I get your point, but it'll have to go through a lot of stages - and an awful lot more than £5.36m in legal fees - before that conclusion is reached.  And if it's that simplistic, why haven't the Championship clubs - or indeed, all of the clubs outside of the top flight - brought a case for restraint of trade against Premiership Rugby?

[Edit] Also found this:
"Under the Regulations, Saracens Rugby Club has the ability to seek a review of the decision by an arbitration body. The review can only be on the basis that there has been an error of law, the decision is irrational or that there has been some procedural unfairness. In the event that Saracens Rugby Club seeks a review, the sanctions will be suspended pending the outcome of that review."

And as Saracens presumably signed-up to the T&Cs as part of their ongoing agreement with Premiership Rugby, they might find it hard to argue that the rules and regulations don't apply to them.  Or am I just being woefully optimistic..?


Edited by Mark W-J - 06 Nov 2019 at 10:36
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OldNick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 12:41
Originally posted by Westcoaster Westcoaster wrote:

Calm down , the points deduction is only suspended, so unlikely to be enforced....



Not so, it was applied yesterday.
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Rob C View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 12:54
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by Westcoaster Westcoaster wrote:

Calm down , the points deduction is only suspended, so unlikely to be enforced....



Not so, it was applied yesterday.

Saracens are on 9 points with an *

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OldNick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 14:20
That’s an update from yesterday then Rob. Must be since they’ve appealed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 14:45
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

That’s an update from yesterday then Rob. Must be since they’ve appealed.

From this morning Nick - as you say, pending the outcome of the appeal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dunc999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 15:51
I think a lot of the good Saracens have done has been lost in this episode.  I'm no fan, but the way they have brought players through their academy and developed to full internationals is very impressive.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 17:12
Originally posted by Westcoaster Westcoaster wrote:

Calm down , the points deduction is only suspended, so unlikely to be enforced....



No it has been suspended because Saracens are appealing - word has it they are likely to be unsuccessful and it will be re-instated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 17:13
Quinns and Exeter seem to be putting the boot in, Murphy at Tigers calling for a league wide review of club accounts.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50314599
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 17:24
I think there should be a salary cap for overseas players Piuatau getting £1 million is crazy.
But for players coming through academies they should get paid what they are worth.
Unfortunately when you pay Piuatu £1 million, Farrell and Vunipola bros will want likewise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote One For The Ditch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 18:22
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Quinns and Exeter seem to be putting the boot in, Murphy at Tigers calling for a league wide review of club accounts.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50314599

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 19:31
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

I think there should be a salary cap for overseas players Piuatau getting £1 million is crazy.
But for players coming through academies they should get paid what they are worth.
Unfortunately when you pay Piuatu £1 million, Farrell and Vunipola bros will want likewise.


Personally, I would allow teams to spend their salary cap how they want - but I would not allow 'marquee players' who's salary is outside the cap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 20:37
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

I think there should be a salary cap for overseas players Piuatau getting £1 million is crazy.
But for players coming through academies they should get paid what they are worth.
Unfortunately when you pay Piuatu £1 million, Farrell and Vunipola bros will want likewise.


Not sure how accurate this is but Sonny Williams is allegedly getting 2 and a half million for two seasons with Toronto in rugby league. Makes the Piiatu Deal pale into insignificance as an ex All Black.
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Deva Delinquent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deva Delinquent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 21:13
Originally posted by Exiled_Scots Exiled_Scots wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

I think there should be a salary cap for overseas players Piuatau getting £1 million is crazy.
But for players coming through academies they should get paid what they are worth.
Unfortunately when you pay Piuatu £1 million, Farrell and Vunipola bros will want likewise.


Not sure how accurate this is but Sonny Williams is allegedly getting 2 and a half million for two seasons with Toronto in rugby league. Makes the Piiatu Deal pale into insignificance as an ex All Black.


Toronto definitely splashing the cash ready for the new season. At 34-y-o I wonder if Money Bill Williams is A: going to last, and B: worth all that expenditure? It's being reported that they've also approached Manu Tuilagi.

I wonder who else is on their shopping list? 🤔
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 21:30
Originally posted by Deva Delinquent Deva Delinquent wrote:

Originally posted by Exiled_Scots Exiled_Scots wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

I think there should be a salary cap for overseas players Piuatau getting £1 million is crazy.
But for players coming through academies they should get paid what they are worth.
Unfortunately when you pay Piuatu £1 million, Farrell and Vunipola bros will want likewise.


Not sure how accurate this is but Sonny Williams is allegedly getting 2 and a half million for two seasons with Toronto in rugby league. Makes the Piiatu Deal pale into insignificance as an ex All Black.


Toronto definitely splashing the cash ready for the new season. At 34-y-o I wonder if Money Bill Williams is A: going to last, and B: worth all that expenditure? It's being reported that they've also approached Manu Tuilagi.

I wonder who else is on their shopping list? 🤔


Not a question whether he or they are worth the expenditure or not, someone has put the the dosh on the table and the player has picked it up.

I suspect there will be other players in the twilight zone (too old for the 2023 WC) will be exercising their options over the coming months ahead of the 6 Nations and selection of the squads.

Would Farrell or Ford as “Northern boys” also consider going the M62 route?

Edited by Exiled_Scots - 06 Nov 2019 at 21:43
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