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uncontested scrums

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JohnT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: uncontested scrums
    Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 19:31
There seems to be some confusion arising about the further sanction of removing a player when the referee decides the game shall continue with uncontested scrums.

In the last two weeks I have witnessed two apparently contradictory decisions in a Level 5 - Regional Premiership matches

The first was when a side having started with the required front row team members i.e 2 props and a hooker on the start and a prop and a hooker on the bench had two props injured in the first half and had to go to uncontested scrums.  After half time the side who had lost the props came out a man down after the Referees assessor had 'told' ( his words not mine) the referee that the side who had caused the uncontested scrums had to take an extra player off.  As you can imagine at this point the match ceased to be a serious contest.

The second was when due to a yellow card a side was unable to provide a replacement prop and so the referee decide that scrums should be uncontested.  No further player was required to be taken off.

As I said these two decisions appear to me to be contradictory, but there may be an explanation under the RFU Regulations (Adult Competitions) and is there is I would be grateful for it.

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oldman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 20:39
As I understand it the referee was correct that they play with 14 men, but at scrums both sides must have eight men bound, ie the side with 14 men half one less three-quarter.

But I stand to be corrected by a referee.
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Robb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 21:57
You do have to take an extra man off if you go to uncontested but it is up to the coaches to enforce that. I've been told by a level 5 ref that the ref doesn't have to enforce it but clubs can then appeal the game to the RFU and get all 5 points if the other side don't do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir_Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2018 at 08:22
This may help 

https://broughtonparkfc.rfu.club/Media/BroughtonParkFC/Broughton%20Park%20Documents/Senior%20Men/Front_Row_Logic_Tree_1415_Level_5_Neutral.pdf


Edited by Sir_Q - 05 Nov 2018 at 09:23
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Insignificant Tick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2018 at 08:38
Originally posted by Sir_Q Sir_Q wrote:

This may help

https://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/MyRugby/Referee/01/30/47/57/Front_Row_Logic_Tree_1415_Levels_3_4_Neutral.pdf

Unless I have read it wrong which is always an issue these days, the chart says it is for Level 5 & below "play off" games only. What are the rules for Level 5 league games if different ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 07:49
I talked this through with a ref a while back, and I assume it hasn't changed.
The key point was that you are not allowed to replace the player that causes uncontested scrums (which results in a team playing with 14).
So if you have no fit and qualified prop replacement and a prop gets injured, you have to play with 14 - a bit like if you had used up all your subs.
If a yellow card is issued to a front rom player and there is no fit and able replacement available to come on (dropping a flanker or winger etc), then it goes uncontested, but there is no requirement to take off an additional player. You can't replace the prop going off, but you wouldn't anyway as he has been carded. It's different in Premiership games with their 23 man squad, where they would have to remove a player, so would play with 13 during the yellow card period.
Oldman is right to point out that with uncontested scrums it has to be 8 vs 8 in the scrum which should create space out wide.
I believe there is a further complication that any available front row players have to come on and play in the uncontested scrum even if they aren't competent in the required position (so a hooker would come on for a prop) but I don't really understand that part!
You would hope that the refs understand the regs, but I suppose Robb is correct to say that it's the club which gets shafted with any point deductions. Can't imagine the ref would come out of it too well on his assessment if he wasn't able to ensure that the right number of players were on the pitch...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 18:14


Quote
Front Row Requirements

14. In the interest of safety
Level 5 and below League Matches
(b) In League Matches at Level 5 and below, each team must have and nominated
in advance at least four suitably trained and experienced front row Players in
their nominated match squad, all at least eighteen years old (unless otherwise
permitted pursuant to RFU Regulation 15) to ensure that:
• on the first occasion that a replacement hooker or a replacement prop is
required the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums.
Note: As set out in World Rugby Law 3, the replacement of a front row player
must come from the suitably trained and experienced Players who started the
match or from nominated replacements. A Player other than a nominated
front row player is permitted to play in the front row only when uncontested
scrums are being played and there are no available front row replacements. 

15. Uncontested Scrum(s)
(a) The Referee shall order uncontested scrum(s) when: (i) a front row Player is
required to be replaced if, having made enquiry of and having confirmed with
the captain of the team (or such other person nominated by the Club as the
manager or other person responsible for the team), there is no suitably trained
and experienced front row replacement who started the match or from the
nominated replacements in accordance with paragraphs 13 and 14 above; or (ii)
the Referee deems it unsafe for any other reason to start or continue the Match
with contested scrums, in which case paragraph 18 below will apply.

(b) In League Matches at Levels 3 and below, Cup Matches and Play-Off Matches if
on any occasion uncontested scrum(s) are ordered by the Referee, in accordance
with (a)(i) above, due to injury (including a temporary blood injury) or
consequent to a Player being temporarily suspended or ordered off or for any
other reason, the team concerned shall not be entitled to replace the Player
whose departure caused the uncontested scrum. On the return to the field of a
front row Player who has been temporarily excluded the Match shall continue
with contested scrums provided it is safe to do so. Subject to paragraph 18
below, the result of the match shall stand.

16. If a league match is completed or contains uncontested scrum(s) and a Club has failed
to comply with the requirement in paragraphs 14(a) or 14(b) to replace a front row
Player on the first and second occasions (first occasion only at Level 5 and below)
with another suitably trained and experienced front row Player, that Club that shall
forfeit the match which will be awarded to the other team who shall be deemed to
have won by four tries.

18. If a match is completed with or contains uncontested scrum(s) and there has been
compliance with paragraphs 14 and 15, the Organising Committee (or Committee in
the case of a Cup Match) may take such action as it deems appropriate (including
altering the result or ordering a replay of the Match) in respect of any suspected,
alleged or actual breach of Regulations as it shall decide and shall notify all Clubs.
The Referee and the Clubs must provide such information and assistance as may be
requested by the Organising Committee (or Committee in the case of a Cup Match).
Any Club may appeal against the decision of the Organising Committee (or
Committee) in accordance with RFU Regulation 13.10.10. 
Blood and Sand
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JohnT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 08:17
Thanks everyone.  It would seem from the above that once all FR replacements are used the effect is the same as a card. 

With only one prop replacement is required at Level 5 then on second injury the side is reduced by one to 14. 

 In the case of cards the binning of a prop after the first prop injury reduces the side to 14, but the injury of a prop after the binning of a prop would reduce the side to 13.  so the order is important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 08:41
They were passed when there was a perception sides with weak scrums had faked injury to go uncontested.
You can nominate more than four player's as Front Row players - it is the coach who decides the are STE.
So if you have another forward who could  step forward, you can chose to nominate them as a fifth or sixth FR capable.
But you must do that prior to the start of the match.
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