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What happens if?

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Runitback View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 14:25
What happens if Ring fencing comes in this season, after Irish go up? 2 up from Nat 1 and one down from Champ?

What happens if Leeds go pop, and Ring fencing comes in?

It all could prove a very interesting last few weeks of the season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 17:21
Rugby paper today certainly made the situation at Leeds sound dire. A real shame, as that part of England has a dearth of professional clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 18:55
Lots of "what ifs".

For whatever reason fans in the North have failed to really engage with supporting a "big city" professional outfit. Sale do ok but access problems do put people off ,Newcastle is fairly isolated and Yorkshire just can't seem to get things going. All three areas have a rich heritage and plenty of clubs so not sure where the problem lies.

Any thoughts from those closer to the action than me?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 19:08
Problem with Yorkshire Carnegie, is they don't have the heritage, when they marketed themselves has Yorkshire, did they really expect people of teams like Donny, Roth, Wharfedale, Harogate, Otley, Huddersfield etc etc etc to drop their allegence with the clubs they have supported for a liftime. It will not happen, they have attract a new fan base.

Edited by KnightsBoy - 03 Mar 2019 at 19:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 19:55
Originally posted by KnightsBoy KnightsBoy wrote:

Problem with Yorkshire Carnegie, is they don't have the heritage, when they marketed themselves has Yorkshire, did they really expect people of teams like Donny, Roth, Wharfedale, Harogate, Otley, Huddersfield etc etc etc to drop their allegence with the clubs they have supported for a liftime. It will not happen, they have attract a new fan base.
Sounds like a Tolkein saga - Donny fans supporting Roth wont happen - supporting Leeds no chance. I clearly know knowt about Yorkshire but see North Yorks as being wonderful trout, grayling & chub  land and Donny & Roth being Mercia, Midlands & Curry - and great beer. They are both great places but have nowt in common. If Yorkshire has a centre its probably Halifax or Huddersfield - the bit I know well is Richmond & Scarborough. 
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bluesman11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 21:21
Speaking of what ifs, rugby paper also confirmed that Ealing have agreed to use a different ground were they to usurp LI and get promotion. No mention of where... Oxford Trailfinders?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 21:28
Yorkshire is very parochial when it comes to its rugby with only the County crossing those clublines. Supporters will watch another clubs odd big game and star but changing your allegiances on a more regular basis doesn't happen. 

As others have said (Rolling Maul passim) Leeds did themselves no favours when they usurped the Yorkshire name - it just put off alot of other clubs and I feel the academy set up probably grates with many too who see their young talent drift to Leeds with a view little reward.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 22:09
Originally posted by Bluesman11 Bluesman11 wrote:

Speaking of what ifs, rugby paper also confirmed that Ealing have agreed to use a different ground were they to usurp LI and get promotion. No mention of where... Oxford Trailfinders?
 

On absolutely no evidence, I'd have to plump for either Loftus Road or Griffin Park. 

I'd think Loftus Road on the basis that local politics would likely push QPR into agreeing a favourable rent to Ealing - they are building a new training ground in the borough after much political wrangling. It is relatively close as well, and QPR needs some money.

I'd guess Griffin Park because it is close, and it is perfect for a one year tenancy due to the new ground being built. However, Irish might want to block something like that.

I'd note - people from outside of London may not realize just how incredibly close to Trailfinders the new Brentford ground is. That'll put Irish right on their doorstep. Very bad for Ealing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ruckinspector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2019 at 08:25
I struggle to understand the Leeds/Yorkshire Carnegie scenario. They have had a fully funded RFU Academy for over a decade and yet at Christmas had to buy in 10 players, most from abroad, to avoid being relegated from the Championship. They talk about having ambitions to be a Premiership club but seem each year to be getting further and further away from the top of the Championship. And now none of their original early season squad are being spoken to about contracts for next season because they have got their sums wrong. Who is in charge there?

One day this pain will make sense to you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backrowb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2019 at 08:40
Originally posted by ruckinspector ruckinspector wrote:

I struggle to understand the Leeds/Yorkshire Carnegie scenario. They have had a fully funded RFU Academy for over a decade and yet at Christmas had to buy in 10 players, most from abroad, to avoid being relegated from the Championship. 
Clap Yup, and a club that shouts out it is YORKSHIRE, strengthens teams outside of Yorkshire with Academy DRs.  The huge import of "imports" really was a kick in the teeth. I was a supporter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2019 at 10:04
Originally posted by backrowb backrowb wrote:

Originally posted by ruckinspector ruckinspector wrote:

I struggle to understand the Leeds/Yorkshire Carnegie scenario. They have had a fully funded RFU Academy for over a decade and yet at Christmas had to buy in 10 players, most from abroad, to avoid being relegated from the Championship. 
Clap Yup, and a club that shouts out it is YORKSHIRE, strengthens teams outside of Yorkshire with Academy DRs.  The huge import of "imports" really was a kick in the teeth. I was a supporter.

It is a poor performance by the club that shan't be named. And you raise some valid points chaps - why do they need to go pulling players from elsewhere if they have the RFU Academy and then sends players outside of the county on loan / DR. Maybe they will deserve what they get.
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2019 at 11:40
Apart form the embarrasment  it would cause the club and the RFU the league would be rejigged and life goes on.

The league logistics depends on when they actually announce they will not be participating.

The cut off date for Premiership and Championship is 1 August.
If they go pop before then RFU can choose to promote an extra side and almost certainly would.
If they go pop after that, the league goes ahead one short.

However for national league tthe cut off date is 1 June.
So if they go pop in June National 1 goes ahead one light.

Earlier than that they have time to reoganise all the way down.
So if they are going to implode, please let the RFU know in May.

It  is all in Reg 13 on the RFU site.

Interestingly, Bill beaumont has had to call an emergency conference to discuss the World League as the pacificislanders have threatened to boycott the World Cup in protect against ring fencing.

Unfortunately the Championship clubs do not have the same leverage.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EverOptimistic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2019 at 15:08
Originally posted by ruckinspector ruckinspector wrote:

I struggle to understand the Leeds/Yorkshire Carnegie scenario. They have had a fully funded RFU Academy for over a decade and yet at Christmas had to buy in 10 players, most from abroad, to avoid being relegated from the Championship. 

An RFU Academy is not fully funded and costs the parent club a large amount of money to meet the objectives laid down by the RFU.  At one stage Wuss gave up their academy because of the costs involved.  Bris at one stage relied heavily on fund raising  and the BrisTrust to help fund the academy. .  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 13:12
Rugby administration is in a right old mess at the moment. The Premiership is littered with South Africans and others from far away and the Championship with people from all over the place.
Sam Stuart is kept out of the Newcastle starting lineup by a Tongan. What a waste of a great English talent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hrplaneman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 14:08
Im at a slight disadvantage as I haven't seen the Rugby Paper article, but on the few jottings already written I have the following points/observations to add to the question of Leeds going pop. 
Leeds, as some will recall was created after the amalgamation of two smaller clubs in the Leeds district. It was that newly created club which was promoted to the premiership some years ago. Because of various factors again as people will recall they were then the up down team for a few seasons before becoming a familiar team within the championship. 
As others have already eluded to, they did themselves no favours at all by abusing the full county title in their club identity. A case of the accountants seeing a good marketing identity at the cost of alienation driven by the premiership land of golden riches perhaps? 

In terms of their academy, yes they have had one for a number of years, producing quite a number of current premiership players. But the majority of those players were picked up by Leeds and interestingly, despite using the Leeds ID, were in fact cultivated through other clubs within the county and were, in the main, short term signings by Leeds before again being picked up/offered premiership player contracts.
 
The latest variation of their Academy is in a roundabout way funded by the RFU. Two seasons ago they managed to convince the Yorkshire CB that the pathway for developing players into the elite route was for them (Leeds) to take over the previously successful selection process, driven in the main by other club coaches and RDO's, promising the developing of the players in the A league whilst of course cherry picking players for the benefits of themselves. With players eligible to play adult rugby I would ask Leeds to give examples of who has come through that particular pathway?

So not only have Leeds failed those players, but so to have the CB by abdicating their responsibilities and duties in areas of player development. 
Whilst a comparison has been made to the vagaries of North/West Yorkshire, in the South, Doncaster through its BUCS league Academy appears to be filling the role that Leeds stated that they would undertake throughout the county but have failed to do so along with the CB.

So to get back on question "what happens if?" The easiest route has to be one up, none down if ring fencing is to be the route of preference. Leeds on their current and previous history should be removed from the equation totally. They should like all other clubs within the county cut their cloth accordingly and either accept that they are a mid table championship side, or indeed accept, that M62 rugby rules in their specific geographical area and play at a level within their means. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trident Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 15:04
Leeds/Carnegie just hasn't taken off. There are many local clubs nearby, mo, if not all, have been stuck by Carnegie hoovering up the young talent, only to spit them out at 19 when not needed and having hardly used them.
And the RFU wonder why players are drifting away from the game.

My view?
If Carnegie folded tomorrow i doubt many in the region would miss them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 16:48
Originally posted by castleparknight castleparknight wrote:

Originally posted by backrowb backrowb wrote:

Originally posted by ruckinspector ruckinspector wrote:

I struggle to understand the Leeds/Yorkshire Carnegie scenario. They have had a fully funded RFU Academy for over a decade and yet at Christmas had to buy in 10 players, most from abroad, to avoid being relegated from the Championship. 
Clap Yup, and a club that shouts out it is YORKSHIRE, strengthens teams outside of Yorkshire with Academy DRs.  The huge import of "imports" really was a kick in the teeth. I was a supporter.

It is a poor performance by the club that shan't be named. And you raise some valid points chaps - why do they need to go pulling players from elsewhere if they have the RFU Academy and then sends players outside of the county on loan / DR. Maybe they will deserve what they get.
 
Was behind the posts when they played at Lady Bay and heard the reply from one of their well known coaches to the question ? Why have you brought all the new players. The reply ( well they weren't good enough so we had to change them ) !!!!!
I must admit I thought the role of a coach was to develop the players not decide they weren't good enough and ditch them

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donnyladinsheffield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 18:59
Originally posted by hrplaneman hrplaneman wrote:

Im at a slight disadvantage as I haven't seen the Rugby Paper article, but on the few jottings already written I have the following points/observations to add to the question of Leeds going pop. 
Leeds, as some will recall was created after the amalgamation of two smaller clubs in the Leeds district. It was that newly created club which was promoted to the premiership some years ago. Because of various factors again as people will recall they were then the up down team for a few seasons before becoming a familiar team within the championship. 
As others have already eluded to, they did themselves no favours at all by abusing the full county title in their club identity. A case of the accountants seeing a good marketing identity at the cost of alienation driven by the premiership land of golden riches perhaps? 

In terms of their academy, yes they have had one for a number of years, producing quite a number of current premiership players. But the majority of those players were picked up by Leeds and interestingly, despite using the Leeds ID, were in fact cultivated through other clubs within the county and were, in the main, short term signings by Leeds before again being picked up/offered premiership player contracts.
 
The latest variation of their Academy is in a roundabout way funded by the RFU. Two seasons ago they managed to convince the Yorkshire CB that the pathway for developing players into the elite route was for them (Leeds) to take over the previously successful selection process, driven in the main by other club coaches and RDO's, promising the developing of the players in the A league whilst of course cherry picking players for the benefits of themselves. With players eligible to play adult rugby I would ask Leeds to give examples of who has come through that particular pathway?

So not only have Leeds failed those players, but so to have the CB by abdicating their responsibilities and duties in areas of player development. 
Whilst a comparison has been made to the vagaries of North/West Yorkshire, in the South, Doncaster through its BUCS league Academy appears to be filling the role that Leeds stated that they would undertake throughout the county but have failed to do so along with the CB.

So to get back on question "what happens if?" The easiest route has to be one up, none down if ring fencing is to be the route of preference. Leeds on their current and previous history should be removed from the equation totally. They should like all other clubs within the county cut their cloth accordingly and either accept that they are a mid table championship side, or indeed accept, that M62 rugby rules in their specific geographical area and play at a level within their means. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geralltrugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2019 at 23:15
My son spent about 18 months at Carnegie. The coach that bought him in was sacked before he started, he was replaced by a rugby league coach who then left to be replaced by someone else who was subsequently replaced by another league coach. The rebranding farce, then the Sinfield experiment. Now basement dwellers in the Championship reliant on shipping in foreigners at the eleventh hour just to maintain second tier status. Sounds far fetched I know but they are the facts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fenboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2019 at 21:12
In YC's case I believe the crux of the matter is raised in the final two paragraphs of the Rugby Paper article: "A move out of Headingley would save the club 400,000 in rent. As well as being a hammer blow to Leeds Rhinos finances...".
It has always been my belief that Union was introduced to Headingley to keep the stadium active all year round. In addition, once the new pich had been laid articles in the now-defunct Rugby Times give the impression that the Leeds Rugby board were expecting to host RWC 2015 matches at Headingley, and may have been expecting the RFU to contribute towards ground improvements to this effect. Once this idea was dashed main sponsor Caddick withdrew his support and the clubs days were numbered. Rebranding from Leeds to Yorkshire did little other than alienate potential supporters.
It's sad all round. I had many great times watching Leeds, but in the end the persistent feeling of junior tenants in Rhino's stadium did for me.
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