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Topic ClosedTitans Next to Up Sticks???

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Albert Fishwick View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 09:40
Originally posted by WINGER14 WINGER14 wrote:

When looking at ground criteria, its interesting to look at the French.

The French Pro12 is probably the richest league in the world, and yet whichever team wins the ProD2 (Second Tier),they are promoted whatever the state/size of their ground.
The owners/backers of the Pro12 club that finishes at the bottom, however much money they have put into it, accept that the club will be relegated.


Things are generally a bit different in France though.  The stadiums are mostly owned by the municipality and made available to other sports too.  Even a small town is likely to have a decent full-size pitch with at least one stand.
That's easy for you to say.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 09:57

RoD - The problems you experienced at The Mennaye could easily be solved - order more beer, have more serving staff, put in more toilets. The club have learned from experience and could upgrade to accommodate 6/7000 if required.
Having said that, the move to a new stadium in Truro is what is needed to make the Pirates more accessible to a wider fan base. I live two minutes from The Mennaye, was born and bred in Newlyn and love the old place - but I realise what is needed attract the numbers to make it sustainable.
Looking at all the possible options available to Roth, it emphasises how sad it is that we don’t have a single proper stadium in the entire Duchy of Cornwall.

Having said that, I don’t see why Roth shouldn’t be allowed to stay at Clifton Lane if they earn the right to promotion. Why should they be forced to leave their spiritual home and all that history and take a massive financial gamble when their present ground could be upgraded to make it perfectly adequate for premiership games?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 10:12
Stalwart

Unfortunately the RFU blazers aren't allowed to read our musings on Rolling Maul - if they did maybe they would sense that beneath their cosy ivory towers there lurks a seething mass of discontent on many fronts - ground criteria being just one of them. I think you know the others...one in particular!

I agree about your Stadium points wholeheartedly - Cornwall needs some sporting facilities fit for the 21st century - and Truro's the obvious place for it. Rotherham already has a great stadium. Unfortunately it's a rugby-free zone at the moment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 12:42
Hopefully the end of the current funding agreements and the negotiations on the way forward will open their eyes. Not holding my breath, though. I think the Premiership cartel is too powerful for anything to change radically.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 15:41
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

RoD - The problems you experienced at The Mennaye could easily be solved - order more beer, have more serving staff, put in more toilets. The club have learned from experience and could upgrade to accommodate 6/7000 if required.

I remain sceptical Stalwart. Ordering more beer would have prevented it running out, but more staff would have been no help at all without more bar meters to serve behind. If you accept that 50% more capacity than was on offer was required, that would mean providing three times the bar meters and number of toilets. I'm just not sure there is sufficient space at the Mennaye to do this.

Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

Having said that, I don’t see why Roth shouldn’t be allowed to stay at Clifton Lane if they earn the right to promotion. Why should they be forced to leave their spiritual home and all that history and take a massive financial gamble when their present ground could be upgraded to make it perfectly adequate for premiership games?

What upgrades would you consider necessary for the ground to become perfectly adequate for premiership games? Upgrades could well be as big a financial gamble as moving to a ground that is already up to standard. Either way, nobody is forcing this choice upon them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 15:45
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

Hopefully the end of the current funding agreements and the negotiations on the way forward will open their eyes. Not holding my breath, though. I think the Premiership cartel is too powerful for anything to change radically.


Indeed, it would be nice to see the RFU retain more control over the operation of the league (or put parameters in place that the league must operate within), but the reality is that the rights will be sold to the highest bidder, who will be the PRL shareholders.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 18:16
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

Hopefully the end of the current funding agreements and the negotiations on the way forward will open their eyes. Not holding my breath, though. I think the Premiership cartel is too powerful for anything to change radically.



Indeed, it would be nice to see the RFU retain more control over the operation of the league (or put parameters in place that the league must operate within), but the reality is that the rights will be sold to the highest bidder, who will be the PRL shareholders.


First time I have seen a post wanting RFU to have more control over anything !

The London Welsh debacle proves making clubs have a large capacity is pointless unless they can fill it..

Why not allow a club to be promoted at their current ground with the proviso that they improve facilities and capacity before the start of their 2nd season in the Premiership?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 18:41
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

First time I have seen a post wanting RFU to have more control over anything !

People seem to think that criticising everything about the RFU makes them appear informed, but who would you prefer to have in charge?

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

The London Welsh debacle proves making clubs have a large capacity is pointless unless they can fill it..

I don't think anyone was insisting on the 12,500 capacity, but a high attendance of over 10,000 and an average over 5,000 says to me that ODP would have been inadequate.

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Why not allow a club to be promoted at their current ground with the proviso that they improve facilities and capacity before the start of their 2nd season in the Premiership?

How many clubs would this be a viable option for? We have established that it wouldn't for Pirates and I'd imagine it wouldn't for LW either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 19:47
We only got 10k for the Wasps match over Christmas, when the vast majority were either freebies or heavily subsidised.  For the remaining ten fixtures, the highest was 6,850 against Tigers on the opening weekend - the smallest crowd to watch a Leicester match all season - and the average was 4,600, a mere 100 more than the supposed capacity of Old Deer Park.  Perversely, I think we would have had to lock an awful lot of people out if we'd been playing at ODP, as the potential to draw crowds in Richmond, via the District Line, M4, North Circular, London Overground and Network South East from Waterloo via Clapham would have been massive.

As to whether it would be a viable option to have stayed at ODP with a view to upgrading for our second season in the elite - well, it would have saved us a fortune in rent at the Kassam in the event of our being relegated after just one season, and would also have given us time to investigate the other opportunities closer to home.

Note: none of the opinions in this post are intended as a criticism of the city of Oxford or the good people of said city.  Any offence is merely the result of misinterpretation on the part of the reader.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2014 at 20:41
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Why not allow a club to be promoted at their current ground with the proviso that they improve facilities and capacity before the start of their 2nd season in the Premiership?

I should have also said that as per my previous post, some things need to be in place from day one. Any club that isn't able to meet the agreements in place with the TV companies is not only biting the hand that feeds it, it's taking food off its peers' plate.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2014 at 14:03
I'd like to think that some accommodation could be made to ground-share (PRL bullpawpaw term, we all know it means rent!!) with the Millers for 1 season*

I can understand why the Millers have no interest in a Ground-share with the Rugby club in the championship at present. The Rugby club offer very little. The crowds for an entire season would only be equal to 2 normal home games for the Millers and they would have to sort out staffing for the extra games and whatever everyone says, there are concerns for football pitches used for Rugby.

However, if Rotherham were to be promoted then there is an opportunity for both clubs. I think Rotherham should adopt the BurnleyFC model** and have a one year sojourn in the AP. 
Invite the big boys to the NY stadium. Crowds won't be massive but they might break 5K a few times. They will undoubtedly finish bottom of the league unless the earth tilts on its axis but they can ride the roller-coaster and pocket the riches on offer. They will of earned the right to do that, by winning the Championship in the first place. All sport should be merit based and reward success IMO.
As for the Millers, they get a decent size rent payment and probably the lions share from any beer/food and corporate income.

* It will 99% be required for 1 year only and its make no sense if Rotherham are in the Championship

** When Burnley got promoted to the Premier league, they cut their cloth to suit, didn't sign any expensive mercenaries, put players on split contracts (PL/FL pay differently) and had a season in the sun. They wen't back down but banked a lot of money to help sustain them in the FL championship (their true level). 
Rotherham could do the same and use the money for long term investment in Clifton Lane or another site. A nice 3-4K main stand with facilities would be a start maybe. Plenty for the Championship and then maybe go down the Sarries and Bath(future plans) route of temp stands if they ever make the AP again.


Edited by AndyI - 06 Feb 2014 at 14:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2014 at 14:12
I don't think there is room for a 3-4K stand at Clifton Lane. The problem is the cricket pitch. I suppose the clubhouse could be demolished and a stand built there but it would be a tight fit.
My view is that unless there are other sources of funding we should stay put
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2014 at 14:24
Originally posted by Laner Laner wrote:

I don't think there is room for a 3-4K stand at Clifton Lane. The problem is the cricket pitch. I suppose the clubhouse could be demolished and a stand built there but it would be a tight fit.
My view is that unless there are other sources of funding we should stay put


I think we could only build a stand down the cricket club side because the houses on the other sides would surely object.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2014 at 14:25
Originally posted by AndyI AndyI wrote:

** When Burnley got promoted to the Premier league, they cut their cloth to suit, didn't sign any expensive mercenaries, put players on split contracts (PL/FL pay differently) and had a season in the sun. They wen't back down but banked a lot of money to help sustain them in the FL championship (their true level). 
Rotherham could do the same and use the money for long term investment in Clifton Lane or another site. A nice 3-4K main stand with facilities would be a start maybe. Plenty for the Championship and then maybe go down the Sarries and Bath(future plans) route of temp stands if they ever make the AP again.

Interesting shout, a few years back when Redruth had a chance of promotion to The Championship, this was the only viable approach I could see. I recall that in year one as newcomers with no P shares that Exeter received much less central funding than the established clubs, presumably this is still the case. How much money could Rotherham hope to "bank" during their season in the sun if they kept costs to a Championship level?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2014 at 16:55
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by AndyI AndyI wrote:

** When Burnley got promoted to the Premier league, they cut their cloth to suit, didn't sign any expensive mercenaries, put players on split contracts (PL/FL pay differently) and had a season in the sun. They wen't back down but banked a lot of money to help sustain them in the FL championship (their true level). 
Rotherham could do the same and use the money for long term investment in Clifton Lane or another site. A nice 3-4K main stand with facilities would be a start maybe. Plenty for the Championship and then maybe go down the Sarries and Bath(future plans) route of temp stands if they ever make the AP again.

Interesting shout, a few years back when Redruth had a chance of promotion to The Championship, this was the only viable approach I could see. I recall that in year one as newcomers with no P shares that Exeter received much less central funding than the established clubs, presumably this is still the case. How much money could Rotherham hope to "bank" during their season in the sun if they kept costs to a Championship level?

Good point RoD. With the inequitable funding in the AP it may not even be worth having a season in the sun:
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/8452/revealed-major-gulf-in-funding-of-top-clubs/

The whole thing stinks of a Cartel and the further shows the Ad-hoc (mickey mouse IMO) way that pro RU is run. I know football has been professional for a whole lot longer but you dont see this. You get into the Premier League, you get your share dependent on where you finish, not because you were around when it formed.

The unpalatable truth would appear to be that RU cant support a professional structure at all, but a 12/14 team league at best. If that's the case then fine. The RFU should stop spouting it's PR snakefruit about growing the game at the elite level and Ringfence the top tier and be done with it. Otherwise take some bloody action against all the unfair statutes in place that hamper ambitious junior clubs like the MSC and the inequitable share system in place in the AP.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2014 at 17:47
Originally posted by AndyI AndyI wrote:

Good point RoD. With the inequitable funding in the AP it may not even be worth having a season in the sun:
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/8452/revealed-major-gulf-in-funding-of-top-clubs/

It seems like you could build what would be considered a nice little nest egg with your season in the sun, but not the sort of the money to bring about the kind of improvements you're talking about.

Originally posted by AndyI AndyI wrote:

The whole thing stinks of a Cartel and the further shows the Ad-hoc (mickey mouse IMO) way that pro RU is run. I know football has been professional for a whole lot longer but you dont see this. You get into the Premier League, you get your share dependent on where you finish, not because you were around when it formed.

I know next to nothing about soccer, so I didn't realise that's how it works. This appears pretty fair to me (those who provide a greater media draw are rewarded accordingly), but no doubt there would be rumblings in rugby about the rich getting richer.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2014 at 19:02
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

 I know next to nothing about soccer, so I didn't realise that's how it works. This appears pretty fair to me (those who provide a greater media draw are rewarded accordingly), but no doubt there would be rumblings in rugby about the rich getting richer.

Yep, its pretty fair:

50% of the Domestic TV money and 100% of Overseas TV money is split equally between all 20 clubs
25% of the Domestic TV money is then split in merit payments depending where you finish.
25% of the Domestic TV money is paid out as facilities fees depending how many times you are on TV.

Under the new TV deal in place this season, the champs will get around £100M and the bottom club at least £63M with it going down in fairly linear steps from top to bottom. 

Details of last seasons here:

The AP don't even publish theirs!!! Says a lot IMO.



Edited by AndyI - 06 Feb 2014 at 19:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2014 at 20:01
As a regular traveler from a Premiership team I have mixed feelings about this thread.

Do I want clubs to be forced to move to achieve their ambitions? No.

Do I want to go to a club and stand in a muddy field with no banking and no loo? No

Do I think it is acceptable for a club with a budget at least £500k to not have floodlights? No

So we need some standards to force people to improve their offerings but there is far too much stick and not enough carrot.  Clubs should only be forced to implement certain standards after promotion and others only after their 1st, 2nd or 3rd year in the prem.

Capacity for instance is silly for a prerequisite.  Their is no good reason for it to be higher than 6k (which is one decent stand and very small terracing all the way round) initially, rising to 10k over the 3 years. 

Floodlights, toilets and ambulances are sensible prerequisites. 

Essentially the MSC are too demanding and instead of encouraging investment in grounds discourage investment as people see the only way of meeting them as moving, so why waste money on their current ground?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2014 at 12:34
I did a double-take when looking at the BBC Rugby website just now - my eyes thought they read:

"Titans discuss Murrayfield groundshare".
 
Wacko
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2014 at 12:41
Originally posted by CharlieP CharlieP wrote:

I did a double-take when looking at the BBC Rugby website just now - my eyes thought they read:

"Titans discuss Murrayfield groundshare".
 
Wacko
 
Do you mean they have wormed themselves into an agreement with the SRU? Wink
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