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Should league matches have to be played on World C

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marigold View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Should league matches have to be played on World C
    Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 13:17
My mates lad is hoping to play most of his rugby in Zoo League 1 this season. He has just found out they have an away fixture on the day of the RWC19 Final. The final will kick off at either 10 or 11am (can't work it out!) UK time which means he is likely to be traveling when the final is on. I see the NCA have also put a full rosta of fixtures for Nat One and Two on this date. I may be out of touch but surely players, of whatever level, will want to be able to watch the final live with their mates rather than be preparing for a potential vital match? Or am I just wrong?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 14:18
At least in the case of Eltham to Richmond it is not far, so you could haed over watch the match there and then get into kit.

Plymouth and Rosslyn Park may be travelling the night before - so they can make the choice between hotel or ground.

But sopmeone like Canterbutry with a 2/3 hour drive are caught somewhat betwixt and between.

Cambridge are at home, so as a fan I may well sneak down to the club and catch the match befoe sitting down to lunch (assumng it has ot already sold out), if it has I may need to watch on the smaller screen and only have a hot dog - unles we have a hog roast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 14:43
Think it will depend on who is in the Final when England won it Nottingham had a game  2/3 hours drive away and as it wasn't the last game of the season some lee way was allowed over kick off . Also helped the home team as they could and did sell out a large brunch with booze to their home fans and guests before we turned up .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 15:53
Fair point because its not just about watching the Final is it? Its about having a few beers with your mates and watching the Final if I'm not mistaken.

There isn't really a solution other than to play on a Friday night or a Sunday both of which raise problems of their own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 16:12
It is only levels 1-4 that have league matches.
Levels 5 and below have a reserve / cup week.

I think the RFU believe serious rugby players do not drink. :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 16:12
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Fair point because its not just about watching the Final is it? Its about having a few beers with your mates and watching the Final if I'm not mistaken.

There isn't really a solution other than to play on a Friday night or a Sunday both of which raise problems of their own.
 

Yes, agree - and there's a tipping point somewhere in the pyramid (not sure where tbh) where the supporters and club as a whole becomes more important than the players - ie, the firsts playing at home on a wc final day where there's no overlap between the two matches is a cash cow that even clubs with no marketing department can spot a mile off.

I know a good few players at N1/2 level so please don't think I'm commoditising them when I say that if they're professional (ie have a contract rather than being full-time) then it's their job to turn up and play rugby, not watch someone else doing it on the TV.

I'm all for moving fixtures when there's a direct clash - so you play before or after the match. When it's a late morning k/o then I'm afraid it's just the luck of the draw whether you're at home or not. 

That having been said, I think any club at that sort of level that can't make money out of a match like this needs to have a serious think. Say it's a late morning kick-off. Even if the firsts are away then the clubhouse should be open for the supporters (and any of the other sides) who haven't travelled. 

Similarly, travelling fans have got the option of going to the host club - which, if it hasn't taken leave of it's senses, will be open all day. The only people disadvantaged really (in terms of seeing it) are away teams and supporters travelling that morning, and someone has to be the loser...

Personally, I can't see any logic beyond being nice to the players in not playing a match *in the afternoon* of a day when there's been an international in the morning. Especially at a level where none of the teams will have been weakened by having players involved.

That takes care of the national leagues. Zoo leagues and merit tables are a different kettle of fish but broadly I think the same should apply. But then maybe I'm old fashioned in having more loyalty to my club than to the England set-up.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 16:22
Zoo league matches between teams where both sides are in nat 1 are arranged to align with the first team wherever possible to allow clubs to use a single coach to cover both matches.

Unfortunately this means that they always overlap, so the 2nds only ever see the 2nd half of the 1st team match.

Richmond is a bit of an outlier as they have two sdies in the Zoo Div 1.

Many clubs the 1st and 2nd team train together and the 2nd team is the players who just missed out or who are recovering from injury - so the 2nd team may be being paid, although I suspect the match fee might be a little more for the first team, but I do not know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote L33 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 09:53
Why would the leagues listen to what the players want ? 

They wont and never will!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 10:08
I don't think there should have been matches scheduled on this w/e. Many clubs could open anyway for brunch/lunch and do ok on the day without having to combine it with one of their 15 home games. And to say 'it depends whether England are playing' isn't realistic, since this won't be known until, at most, a couple of weeks in advance and perhaps as little as six days before. If England did feature, and two clubs due to play on Nov 2 agreed in the week leading up to the game that they wished to postpone, I wonder if they would face sanctions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 10:11
Originally posted by L33 L33 wrote:

Why would the leagues listen to what the players want ? 

They wont and never will!!!
 

I raised in my post though the point I'm still thinking about - where in the league system the players become less important than the club and the supporters? I don't mean in terms of welfare of safety of course, but there is a point (National Leagues? Regional Premiers?) where clubs are right to turn round to their players and say "no, you're playing" - never mind the leagues.

Given the money making opportunities from having the clubhouse open all day for the final and then the afternoon's league fixture, I would be astonished if the clubs at N1 level, never mind the NCA, would have gone for anything other than a full league programme on that date. I keep coming back to N1 because this thread is on that board. Lower down it may well be different - certainly at the levels where the balance should (rightly) listen to what the players want.

I would argue though at N1 level it would be nice of them to ask what players wanted maybe, but in no way to be bound by it or put it above what the clubs might want.


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Camquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 11:08
One problem is of course that with a full schedule of 30 league matches between September 1 and April 30 there are not a lot of free weekends - and taking one out early in the seaon means there are fewer weeks left for catch-up to cope with weather delays.

We could have started the season a wek early - or cancelled the county championship and run into May. But that means a shorter summer and therefore less recovery time for the players.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 11:36
I've always thought 30 games was too many at levels 3/4...

But given that 30 is the number, I'd have thought starting a week earlier would be better, partly because of the World Cup Final and also because players have 16 straight games without a break until Xmas. Ok, a week earlier would August, but the very last day of August and not the bank holiday weekend which I think most people would regard as the end of the off-season. That would mean 9 games, then a week off at start of Nov, then 7 more games, then Xmas...

But appreciate it's not up to me, and it's probably too late to change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camp Freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 15:54
Camquin, keep your paws off the County Championship !!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote L33 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 23:06
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

I've always thought 30 games was too many at levels 3/4...

But given that 30 is the number, I'd have thought starting a week earlier would be better, partly because of the World Cup Final and also because players have 16 straight games without a break until Xmas. Ok, a week earlier would August, but the very last day of August and not the bank holiday weekend which I think most people would regard as the end of the off-season. That would mean 9 games, then a week off at start of Nov, then 7 more games, then Xmas...

But appreciate it's not up to me, and it's probably too late to change.

Correct too many games 26 max at N1 & N2
Players over playing - getting injured dropping out the game.

However you will have clubs saying we need more games.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 18:26
Madness to play on the day of the World Cup Final.

Stuff forcing the players to play.

If a club is set up correctly they’ll bring all their members together and celebrate properly without the need for lads to have to forsake watching the biggest game in the world
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 19:25
Billesleyexile your comment -'I would argue though at N1 level it would be nice of them to ask what players wanted maybe, but in no way to be bound by it or put it above what the clubs might want.' Surely at the vast majority of Nat 1 and 2 clubs and certainly at Regional level the players are the clubs! How many of the alikadoos/committee men/long standing club supporters will be traveling on the away bus trying to watch/listen to the World Cup Final on a phone/? Answer -none! they will be in their clubhouse/local pub watching the game with their mates. Why should the players who have to commit to a minimum of 3 times per week to train and play  for nearly 10 months not get to watch the World Cup Final. I would love to know where the NCA administrators are planning to be on that morning having organised for 24 teams to travel that day.The game surely is for the players. If not they will leave the game.(sadly as they already are)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 20:42
If clubs are so bothered they could have changed the day/kick off time with the agreement of both clubs.
During the 2003 World Cup we Blackheath were due to play Launceston as they were at that point. The decision was made by the players and management in a change to norm we would travel on Friday night stopping over in Taunton about as far as you can get outside London on a Friday night. In the morning the players sat together for breakfast and then watched the match. Little issue as game went into extra time but to a man the players went up to their rooms and brought bags to the reception not missing any action and 2 Scotsman loaded the coach and still saw the majority of extra time and a buoyant set off players got on the coach where the skipper gave an easy passionate speech and we travelled on in time for normal preparation for the league game.
The result was we won for the first time in Cornwall and that result probably helped win the league as it was decided on points difference.
So if planned correctly it’s not an issue in the morning in fact it can be a positive
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 21:45
Originally posted by marigold marigold wrote:

Billesleyexile your comment -'I would argue though at N1 level it would be nice of them to ask
what players wanted maybe, but in no way to be bound by it or put it
above what the clubs might want.' Surely at the vast majority of Nat 1 and 2 clubs and certainly at Regional level the players are the clubs! How many of the alikadoos/committee men/long standing club supporters will be traveling on the away bus trying to watch/listen to the World Cup Final on a phone/? Answer -none! they will be in their clubhouse/local pub watching the game with their mates. Why should the players who have to commit to a minimum of 3 times per week to train and play  for nearly 10 months not get to watch the World Cup Final. I would love to know where the NCA administrators are planning to be on that morning having organised for 24 teams to travel that day.The game surely is for the players. If not they will leave the game.(sadly as they already are)





By national 1 level you’ve got some clubs getting 1000 through the gate at £15 or so a head, to pay towards players who didn’t come through their own youth system, and maybe taking at least 100 away.

Does this come down to the argument about non Premiership rugby and it’s status? There are clubs in N1 that really aren’t set up as you describe - “big” clubs that traditionally get good gates, and “small” clubs with deep pockets. Either way they’re being paid serious money to be where they are and yes, there are clubs where the players are just a part of it. Important part, but they’re really not there for the hell of it and it’s disingenuous to suggest that they’re a bunch of lads playing together for something to do on Saturday afternoons at that level. IMO obviously.

I would agree with you at regional level absolutely but, again, you’ve put this on the national 1 thread. National 1 has aspirant and recent Championship clubs that are set up as (for want of a better word) entertainment businesses for paying spectators primarily.

It’s another reason why the top of the NCA set up is like the Wild West. You’ve got a mix of clubs set up in different ways and with different aspirations all bundled together. Your Blackheaths, Moseleys, Plymouths, Rotherhams, RP, Richmonds etc have to look beyond their players to spectators who they can and do make money out of and take that into account alongside the players. Final day is money making day for any of them who are at home. It might not be right, and I am sympathetic to what you are saying, but it is true.

Edited by billesleyexile - 24 Jul 2019 at 21:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 17:13
I seem to recall that in 2015 there was a rest week at N2 level, so presumably N1, on the day of the final.

Apart from the obvious fact that this was at Twickenham I cannot see why the same hasn't applied.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 09:28
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

I've always thought 30 games was too many at levels 3/4...

With huge squads and in game replacements plus rest weeks, 30 should be OK. I know the game is more physical but if players want paying then step up to the mark.
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