National League Rugby Discussion Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > National League 1
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Season over
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Season over

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
Rich13 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 27 May 2007
Location: S Yorks
Status: Offline
Points: 807
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Season over
    Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 13:40
So what happens now....Richmond up, Leeds down, Caldy & Taunton up, Ionians & Canterbury down. 

No playoff possible, so just 2 down....? 
Back to Top
Runitback View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 22 Sep 2014
Location: North
Status: Offline
Points: 829
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 13:48
Whatever happens some clubs are going to feel hard done to, more importantly many clubs could fold with a lack of income!
Run with it
Back to Top
Alderman View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2017
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 1042
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alderman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 14:08
RFU promise to ensure 'fair and balanced outcomes' in April. Potential for major arguments to occur.

How about Richmond v Rosslyn Park play off to replace Yorkshire Carnegie. Hull and Canterbury down seems obvious, as does Caldy up, but how about a Taunton v Juddians play off?
Back to Top
stonehousealbion View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 07 May 2011
Location: Plymouth
Status: Offline
Points: 1558
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stonehousealbion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 15:07
There are any number of ways to decide fairness and balance - just applying the 25 game benchmark would appear to me as the simplest.

Richmond edge Park on league points, wins and PD. (They'd have had a tough away game at Brickfields, mind...)

Equally, Taunton edge TJs by a slimmer margin in the league, but even with one fewer win are better overall on PD and LBPs.

Any suggestion of proceeding with 2nd place play-offs would require scrutiny of 13/14th places in Nat 1 - but Moseley appear safely over the bar on the 25 game criterion.

Is the current NCA table accurate re Cinderford and Hull Is' records this term?

The whole 2019/20 season will be a good one for pub quiz questions a couple of decade's time from now... 
Come cheer up, my lads - 'tis to glory we steer!
Back to Top
Clive Norling View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion


Joined: 06 Mar 2018
Location: Reading
Status: Offline
Points: 241
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 15:07
Don't think play offs are right, none of the teams will have trained or played in about at least 8 weeks and possibly longer, recipe for injury in the first place and the RFU are meant to be concerned about player welfare ....
Back to Top
billesleyexile View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Location: North Oxon
Status: Offline
Points: 1081
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 16:31
Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

Don't think play offs are right, none of the teams will have trained or played in about at least 8 weeks and possibly longer, recipe for injury in the first place and the RFU are meant to be concerned about player welfare ....

I agree, and I'm going to try and see past my Moseley season ticket for a minute.

I think guillotining now, as with Stonehousealbion, is the only way to do this. Straight ups and downs on current standings fair enough (well, maybe not for some teams but you have to draw a line somewhere), but playoffs are a safety risk and a nightmare for the teams which the winner "could-but-it-isn't-clear" be replacing. Which let's face it is us or Roth. Don't much fancy a sudden death loser-loses-all decider with the Clifton Lane boys either for the same safety reasons. And I don't suppose my good friends from Roth would either.

If they're not going to freeze the leagues and start again as though this year never happened then I think automatic promotions and relegations only are probably the simplest way forward.

Of course, there's always the bigger question, notwithstanding all of the above, of which/how many clubs at each level will still be lining up for the start of next season.

Hopefully all of them, obviously.

keep the faith
Back to Top
Rabbie Burns View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 16:58
There is other permutations, Are YC going to be viable next season and what is the current standing with OEs (there was meant to be a new major sponsor announced in March). Are the RFU going to cut to14 a season early. Lots of considerations 
So many Christians not enough Lions
Back to Top
Rothman2 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner

Rotherham

Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Location: Derby
Status: Offline
Points: 9403
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rothman2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 17:16

I don’t see any point in debating about play offs. RFU have declared the season over which means no more Rugby.


It is not like football where they are still advocating trying to complete the season, but sooner or later, whether they like it or not, a line will have to be drawn on that.


However, there are some difficulties with just declaring the season null and void, such as, Saracens have been relegated. Canterbury and Hull Ionians are relegated. Caldy are promoted. There may be more but to null and void the season would be grossly unfair in the case of Caldy in particular.


However, it then starts to get a little fuzzy in terms of the powers of the RFU because I believe, being a secondary sport compared to football, there would be a lesser appetite (not to mention money)for legal battles in so far as clubs below the Premiership are concerned, possibly with the exception of Newcastle & Ealing.


Given what has happened with Saracens, they must go down. In the Championship, Newcastle have won every game and Leeds have lost every game. Now I understand that technically neither are both over or under the line yet, but realistically are Newcastle going to be caught? Are Leeds actually going to win a game given the thumpings they have already had in every game, never mind win the several games they would need to win to have even the remotest chance of catching anyone?


The answer to this is a profound no.



National 1. Although Richmond are clear leaders it could be argued that they could still be caught by a number of teams. At the bottom, Hull Ionians and Canterbury are relegated. They cannot catch Moseley.


Rotherham are currently in the 3rd relegation spot four points behind Moseley with 5 games to go. Moseley are in free fall and Roth are in better form, having been 13 points behind Mose quite recently. Both run ins are quite tough but the odd bonus point here or there could make all the difference. It is not cut and dried. 


In Division 2  North,Caldy have won the league but with 5 games to go, realistically any of 3 teams could still get 2nd place.


In Division 2 South, with 5 games to go, 4 teams could still theoretically win the league. Not cut and dried.

In these cases if I had the decision, 

Caldy would be promoted Hull Ionians would be relegated to balance the North, both Roth and Mose would stay up, and (here’s a curved ball) Canterbury would also stay up on the basis that there is no clear winner in National 2 South, or put another way, unlike Caldy in the North there is no outstanding team in the South. There is a significant gap between Nat 1 and Nat 2. 


The only other option is to write off the season and everyone starts again in the same league, which in my opinion would be astonishing as it would shatter Caldy and Newcastle and would give totally undeserved reprieves for Saracens and Leeds.

Back to Top
LJ from Roth View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Location: Worksop
Status: Offline
Points: 76
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LJ from Roth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 17:37
I think you argue the points well Rothman BUT I do not trust the RFU to do the right thing, or be transparent about anything after what happened with Leeds last season. They knew the state of their finances and yet they bent over backwards to ensure they stayed in the Championship panda still have done nothing about monies owed and promises broken. 

I hope I’m wrong and that the majority can be happy with what they decide. 
Back to Top
Rothman2 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner

Rotherham

Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Location: Derby
Status: Offline
Points: 9403
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rothman2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 17:49
RFU REGULATION 13 – ADULT COMPETITIONS 1 Effective from 1 August 2019
RFU RULES 2019/20 - - extract from section 13 :

Power to vary, disapply, amend or make further regulations during the season.


13.1.3 In the event that the committee feels that it is in the interests of Rugby Union Football or an RFU Competition, it may amend or vary RFU Regulation 13 and the Appendices and/or make further regulations during a Season:

(a) where in the view of the Committee exceptional and material circumstances have occurred during any RFU Competition which either have not been provided for or cannot be equitably dealt with under RFU Regulation 13 (particularly if promotion or relegation is likely to be materially affected), the Committee may at its own instigation introduce regulations for the current Season and/or determine the results of matches that have not been played for reasons related to the above exceptional and material circumstances and/or determine which Clubs should or should not be relegated);

(b) any regulation or decision made or taken by the Committee under this Regulation 13.1.3 shall become final and binding unless any person or Club affected has given notice of an appeal to the RFU Head of Discipline within 48 hours of that person or Club affected being made aware of it and an Appeal Panel rules that the regulation or decision of the Committee shall not apply.



Edited by Rothman2 - 21 Mar 2020 at 09:29
Back to Top
Rothman2 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner

Rotherham

Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Location: Derby
Status: Offline
Points: 9403
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rothman2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 17:53
So effectively they can do what they want. Although being their own pools panel would be fraught with problems. Particularly they would have to not only predict the league results but also that of a hypothetical play off between the respective 2nd placed teams in North 2 and south 2
As a point of law it may not be enforceable to relegate a team that has not been relegated, no matter how unlikely that escape may be, nor is it a formality that a team who has not yet already earned promotion, should be promoted.




Edited by Rothman2 - 20 Mar 2020 at 18:07
Back to Top
kingsheathlad View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: Haselor.
Status: Offline
Points: 2120
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kingsheathlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 18:18
Good to see you back on the maul Rothman 2,you make excellent points above. 
Cauliflower ear
Back to Top
Dobber View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion


Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 19:07
Opportunity for RFU to commence the restructure of all rugby below the Championship level? With the best will in the world having teams like Plymouth and Darlington separated by 400 miles or so it's only the die-hard supporters that will travel... and in ever decreasing numbers with the cost of fuel etc etc. Is it sustainable?  Face it, below international level and Premiership level it's a struggle for some clubs to survive hand to mouth and many rely on Minis and Juniors membership to keep enough in the bank to keep going.
League One is where the 'League One North' League One South' should start and then below that a much more compact geographical spread for each league. There just aren't the numbers clicking the turnstiles below the top two level to keep the game going.  
  
Back to Top
Darth Raider View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 12 Mar 2010
Location: Sussex
Status: Offline
Points: 1435
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darth Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 19:08
What do you want to do ?
New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">
FWIW.........some good points Rothman and for the greater part, I agree with you.  An observation and one disagreement though.

Firstly, I think that the RFU/NCA should publish final league tables, extrapolating final points totals as average points pewr game so far x 30.  This gets rid of the issue whereby clubs have played different numbers of games. 

I agree that promotion for champions and some relegation should proceed, based on these tables and that playoffs cannot occur.  This is tough and ignores current form......so for example in our league....Redruth are the form side and have won 13 consecutive games but will miss out.  No solution will suit all and the RFU are in an unenviable position.  Personally, I am happy to oranges them off at the best of times......but this is a no win situation. 

Where I disagree with you is your statement that there are no outstanding sides in Nat2S this season.  I know what you mean but how do you know that there are not four outstanding sides ?
You say that there is a big difference between Nat1 and 2, but history would seem to suggest that that is only true of the northern league.
Typically, southern exports to level 3 fair very well.  In fact, if the leagues had finished normally this year, there is a good chance that there would only have been 3 northern sides left at level 3 and 13 southern sides. Last year's Nat2s champions would have been just 3pts off of the Championship themselves without the RFU's contentious 5pt deduction.  
The other issue which I should really research but can't be ar&ed, is that southern teams relegated from level 3 rarely do well in their first season back in the incredibly competitive Nat2s.  Look at Esher this year ?  
I don't see how it is justifiable to leave Canterbury in situ.....ONE Nat2S side also deserves promotion.
All that said....I actually agree with you....in that I think none of our current top 4 are quite at the level of many previous champions and might struggle next year.  I assume from their record, that Caldy are the real deal and the best northern side since Sale to gain promotion.
THat's my bit then.......back to beer and self isolation TongueWink  
Back to Top
stonehousealbion View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 07 May 2011
Location: Plymouth
Status: Offline
Points: 1558
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stonehousealbion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 22:10
Dobber,

I take your point about us and DMP being the extremes of the bell curve, but provided clubs in a similar position can plan for the one-offs, it's not insurmountable. (Or how about a 350 mile threshold for special expenses?) The max travel distances for the other 14 2019/20 teams are significantly lower.

We've both been there or thereabouts for our time at Level 3, so re-jigging the whole league on the basis of 2 fixtures across a whole season is a bit skewed.

(And before somebody quotes Mandy Rice-Davies to me, I am fully aware that promotion for Taunton is very much the best case scenario for PARFC. Redruth as well would have been a double win-win for us, but a royal pain in the fundament for DMP.)


Edited by stonehousealbion - 20 Mar 2020 at 22:10
Come cheer up, my lads - 'tis to glory we steer!
Back to Top
Sid James View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2013
Location: East Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 1312
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 23:34
The English League's will be taken to be completed as they stand today and the NCA regulations that were in place at the begining of the season will be adhered to. 
YC will still exist next season but in Nat 1. and re-named as Leeds Tykes. Richmond will deservedly go back into the Championship having been robbed of their place last season.
Caldy will go up to Nat 1. along with Tonbridge who have a better record than Fylde
Sorry Rotherham but you are coming down with us to N2N, to enjoy some good old Yorkshire derby's. Canterbury down to N2S.
Preston & Scunny definitely down from N2N but Otley may yet get a reprieve. Bottom 3 down in N2S.
Good luck to everyone for next season. 
All Knwoing All Seeing
Back to Top
Rothman2 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner

Rotherham

Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Location: Derby
Status: Offline
Points: 9403
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rothman2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 00:39
They cannot relegate teams that are not relegated already. I will give you Caldy but none of the others. There are no play offs.

Edited by Rothman2 - 21 Mar 2020 at 00:41
Back to Top
Sid James View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2013
Location: East Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 1312
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 08:07
Of course they can.
The NCA Regs say three clubs will be relegated. The season is over. The tables stand as they are today.
Wait and see.
All Knwoing All Seeing
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 11:17
Originally posted by Rich13 Rich13 wrote:

So what happens now....Richmond up, Leeds down, Caldy & Taunton up, Ionians & Canterbury down. 

No playoff possible, so just 2 down....? 


Sounds reasonable - possibly with the exception of Taunton - far too close IMO in N2S, need to look at it seriously.
RAID ON
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 11:29
Originally posted by Rothman2 Rothman2 wrote:

They cannot relegate teams that are not relegated already. I will give you Caldy but none of the others. There are no play offs.


I think you will find they can do what they want

However I think this will mean promotion for winners only and relegation for the bottom team(s) to compensate - but the play-offs will not happen and 3rd bottom teams will be reprieved.

e.g. Hull Ionians and Canterbury relegated from N1, Caldy promoted from N2N and one team (whoever is calculated to have won N2S) promoted from N2S.
RAID ON
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.