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Roll-up Roll-up its Circus Time

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PiffPaff View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Mar 2021 at 06:24
Who noticed the RFU published the long awaited Future Competition Structure Review yesterday?

Although it was removed after a few hours because it hadn't been approved for release. Its possibly coming out today or over the weekend.

They seemed to have put the National back into the National Leagues with the "re-design" of Nat 2 which at first look doesn't do much for the environment.

Nat 2 South(ish) is more blurred than most, at the moment it will have

Bournemouth, Worthing, Redruth, Old Reds, Clifton, Dings, Barnstaple and Weston-super-mare

Then joined by Birmingham Moseley, Luctonians, Bourneville, Newport (Salop) and Stourbridge

with the Final piece.............. Chester

Apparently all based around mileage


Edited by PiffPaff - 26 Mar 2021 at 06:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kingsheathlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2021 at 07:11
Birmingham Moseley are in National league 1.Am I missing something, apologies for my ignorance 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2021 at 07:18
Think its based on finishing positions from the truncated 2019/20 season and with Mose finishing in the bottom 4 all those clubs have been "auto-relegated". The actual League will be made up of finishing positions from next season 21/22 so I would suggest don't finish in the bottom 4!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2021 at 16:07
It would seem its now out for general release https://lancashirerugby.co.uk/news/1537-future-competitions-structure
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2021 at 18:21
Unfortunately you cannot change the shape of the country. It is always going to be a long way to Redruth or to Aspatria -or indeed to Canterbury.

You are also not going to always get the right number of teams in any region.

So you either level transfer - as Chester are in the example. You could have moved Henley West and probably Hinkley South East - but they seem to prefer fwer moves where possible and without messing with google maps I am not sure it actually reduces milage.

Oor you relegate one more Northern side and promote one more South Western side.
But what would you do if Darlington, Sale and Leeds were relegated the following season - or Elthamians, Blackheath and Rosslyn Park.

It is so much moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. It does not solve anything and there is most change at the levels where least was wrong.

Currently we expect one team up from the Championship at the end of the the current short season, that leaves them with 11 for 21/22/ I do not believe they will want to continue with 11 teams going forward. So there may be one, three or five teams promoted with no relegation to bring them to 12, 14 or 16 . In which case, there may be fewer relegation slots from National 1.

However, if you are national 2 you probably need to win your league - or maybe not.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkermentality Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2021 at 12:02
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Who noticed the RFU published the long awaited Future Competition Structure Review yesterday?

Although it was removed after a few hours because it hadn't been approved for release. Its possibly coming out today or over the weekend.
....

I've seen an unofficial copy of the competitions structure. It includes links to the proposed leagues. Unfortunately (!) the links do not work. Does anyone have a link or copy of these covering the South East of England that they can share?


Edited by Bunkermentality - 03 Apr 2021 at 12:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2021 at 12:34
The Lancashire site has links that cover the whole country

Levels 3-6

Levels 7-11 - you will need to zoom in the text is small.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2021 at 16:07
I do feel that they have only done half the job.
I feel they should have been able to at least fill in the yellow highlighted entries

As far as I can see the new structure is the old structure (with a minor tweak in the North West).
Except that all the yellow lines will be filled in with 2nd Xv teams to make up for all the teams promoted to level 6.

There is no attempt to show the current 2nd XV structure or how that would be affected by losing those sides.

And no attempt - again except in the North West - to look to see if it is possible to reduce travel by changing the structure once you merge the second team leagues into the pyramid.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2021 at 16:26
What's worrying about all this, the RFU put the information on the Website over a week ago and then realised they hadn't gone thru the proper channels and removed it same day. However its not reappeared all you get is a blank page https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/future-competitions-structure-proposed-plan-recommendations-published

I understand the CB Council Reps got info and were asked to pass it on/speak to their clubs. Be interesting to know which CBs have done this because this sounds a tad "covert" in the sense that if CBs are told by their Clubs to vote against these changes then the CB Reps are will have to. 

If the Clubs remain silent its likely your County Rep will vote the whip and the RFU want this doing whether you like it or not.

So if you are at Chairman/Secretary status of a Level 3 down Club, have you seen the documents?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 12:23
I tend to agree, if you think it is a mistake, speak to your club chairmen.
You may as well also write personally to your CB rep.
But it might be futile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 14:07
There is nothing new in this for most Clubs. The Level 3/4 proposals are those that have been discussed at length within the NCA. The only new areas are the flexibility at Level 7 and below and the introduction of Junior XVs up to Level 7 which is a change from the previous discussion point.

The Junior XV idea won’t suit Level 3/4 Clubs as their teams are usually better than Level 7. 

The Lancashire document seems to me a kite-flying exercise. The NCA has yet to decide how the Level 4 Leagues will be structured and this subject was discussed at length on this Forum last year. 

I have to say I was initially against cutting the League sizes until I talked at length with our players and heard their opinions. That swung me behind a shorter season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 15:40
But the end of season cup make a mockery of that, as it adds back all the games that were cut - with more travel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 15:57
.... and there CQ is the rub of the green.

Smaller Leagues, less games better for player welfare according to FCS Review Group

Have a Cup based on Group stages then knockout rounds at the end of the season giving you 3 plus games. FCS Review Group it's what clubs want.........player welfare no longer a point for validation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 18:33
The End of Season Cup is for Level 5 down, the 12 team Leagues, and is optional with mid-season entry. It is also what players who responded from those Clubs wanted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmilingD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 19:34
I know that there are at least two CBs who are actively canvassing their clubs opinions - Lancashire have it all over their website and Eastern Counties have sent a survey out to all clubs to enable the Council Rep to be sure they understand clubs views. And don't forget that the NCA has a council rep too.

I would be surprised if other CBs and/or council reps aren't also canvassing opinion. But remember that there are votes on Council that have no relationship with clubs in the English league system - the Oxford and Cambridge Unis, students, the Army, Navy, RAF etc etc.

Last time round Council voted in favour of change but most geographic CB reps opposed it - the result was quietly dropped.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 20:44
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

The End of Season Cup is for Level 5 down, the 12 team Leagues, and is optional with mid-season entry. It is also what players who responded from those Clubs wanted.

A chance to play at Twickers is very much an incentive. As someone from a  club who has been to a Twickenham final, I can tell you the experience is something so worthwhile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camp Freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 21:28
Robb, it doesn't say the final will be a Twickenham, it says (I think) a prestigious ground. Once again the RFU are being parsimonious with the stadium opening, which I'm pretty sure, we as club members still own.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldman1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 21:51
I attended a schools final's day at Twickers some years back. I was told that then it cost £40,000 to open the ground for games. If that is still the case I'm sure those wonderful council members will avoid opening for a non professional game1

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 23:43
I’m reminded by some of these posts of Donald Sutherland in Kelly’s Heroes - “what’s with the negativity?”!

These Council decisions are the end of a game which has been playing out for about 5 years now. CBS have canvassed their Clubs on several occasions, players and Clubs have been surveyed and the NCA has had several meetings on this restructure. I’m astonished that anyone involved in rugby from Level 3 down thinks this is anything new. Have you not been discussing this at your Club for the last 3years?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 00:09
Halliford - have you seen the data on which the re-org is based? I have, and there is neither majority player support for any form of league re-org beneath the national leagues, nor does player behaviour in the last 10 years (with the carrot of a Twickenham final) support a Cup at any level beneath the national leagues, let alone one that will simply allow clubs with cash to burn to rescue a disappointing league season.  The planned re-structure is flawed on many levels, and (as I have pointed out many times on this forum and in the press) should not be waved through. One up, 2 down in a 12 team league will mean vast number of meaningless matches for many clubs, there will be a significant increase in transfers between leagues (removing cb’s as the basis for leagues ensures this), and the first couple of seasons will also see some huge mismatches. There was hardly a supporting voice in any of the presentations I attended, and once again I reiterate that the time and money is better spent on sharing best practice from those clubs that are flourishing. 
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