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Ring-fencing... again

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gerg_861 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 21:35
One way of selling this to the PRL, the Championship, and N1 is to stop relegation, but keep promotion for the Premiership for 4 years. So year 1, no team goes down, Championship winner goes up. N1 goes up. Year 2, no team goes down, Championship winner goes up. N1 goes up, and so on and so forth. Of course, the one flaw with this is what you do with the Championship after the 4 seasons - does the RFU continue to fund a 12 team Championship? Does the PRL get tired of splitting money 16 ways (they'll be happy not to have relegation for a few years, but after that sweetener wears off...)? I think that increased gates and T.V. money would result, and the pie would get bigger, but Super Rugby thought the same thing, and the relegation battle is one of the most interesting parts of the season, so losing that would be bad in the short term.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 22:30
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:


NM speaks of H&A games within your pool - 14 games.
If you add a single game against sides in the other pool that would be 22 plus up to 4 play-offs 
Is that enough, even if you do not play during internationals.

 

European rugby adds more fixtures
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 22:49
Would there be 16 European places?

That would be 6 extra games.
If you have a 28 game season with possibly 6 playoff games - you are going to play through the international season would need as large a squad as now.

I think this is a back of a fag packet proposal that has not been thought through.


Edited by Camquin - 09 Dec 2018 at 22:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rinkadink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 23:44
Originally posted by gerg_861 gerg_861 wrote:


I think that the interesting thing here is that nobody is happy, and there are compelling arguments on both sides of the fence. I work in commercial management for a big multi-national in the city, and I spend a big chunk of each week brokering deals that work for multiple parties. So from a "head" perspective, I can imagine half a dozen permutations that would balance the considerations of the PRL, RFU, and Championship clubs - and none of them will be perfect.
 
I think that the key to this discussion being so never ending is that people keep looking at this as a zero sum game, as if the Championship folding would (for example) lead to Harlequins picking up all of Ealing's fans and RFU funding. This obviously isn't true.
 
Therefore, the best long term solution must be one that grows the overall rugby pie while protecting as many interests as possible. Growing the rugby pie would be defined as:
 
* Increased average annual attendances across all tiers
* Decreased losses (note that I don't say increased revenues)
 
To achieve the above, I would suggest that you'd need a system that did the following:
1. Acknowledged past investments in some way via shares in overall rugby revenue and/or additional rights at a particular tier.
2. Gives more exposure to non-Premiership clubs (this is key to increasing attendances).
 
Personally, the permutation that I'd go for would be:
1. Expand the Premiership to 14 teams.
2. Bring the Championship into the PRL and expand to 14 teams.
3. Have the possibility of 2 up 2 down promotion relegation (across at least the top 3 tiers).
4. P share holders (and I'd create a similar share system for the Championship clubs), if in the relegation zone, have the right to a play off to retain their place in the Premiership.
5. Non-P share holders automatically go down.
6. Winners have the option of taking the parachute payment instead of going up.
7. Scrap the stupid cups to allow for the longer seasons.
 
I know that there would be some level of concern about diluting RFU funding, but I'd hope that that would be offset by the additional stability, and potential additional TV revenues for a better promoted Premiership D2.
 
As I've said, there are lots, and lots of permutations, the one above is just my favourite from a "head" perspective. From a heart perspective, I'd love to see 3 up 3 down with playoffs like in football, or Super 8s!




Echoes a lot of what I've been saying lately.

Interestingly it seems Melville wants to kill of The Championship as a professional league by reducing the number of professional players in England... surprised more here aren't up in arms. The RFU have failed us all with it's proposed fully professional championship plus its format (two clubs have imploded as well in LW and Pymouth) and I would rather they allow PRL to take control of the competition.

It's going to be difficult but I genuinely think we have a chance to grow the game in this country. I hope a solution similar to the quoted post can be arranged, it would be a shame to squander it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Teddy1960 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 09:41
What is this big deal about being in the Premiership? What you want to do is top your division, isn’t it? All of the clubs in the Premiership have t/o of £15-20m and all but one made a loss last year. There probably isn’t a Championship club with t/o of much over £2m. Yes they get bigger RFU money in the Premiership but where is the extra funding that would allow a Championship club compete. I’d like to see a better funded Championship that reduced the cavernous gap between them & the Premiership, where players did not feel like a very poor second best. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 13:15
It depends on what you mean by complete.  I think there are lots of clubs in the division who could compete easily at the bottom end of the Premiership with a little more money from the increased funding. 
 
Extra funds would come from various places.  Just two examples
 
Gates would be higher, for example Blues would be a sell out of 5k for teams like Saints, Tigers, Saracens.
 
Clubs can also get increased sponsorship deals from the greater exposure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Teddy1960 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 12:36
But most clubs would need to invest a chunk of money in their grounds and facilities first in order to get them up to an acceptable standard. Ealing are the only club with a deep pocketed benefactor who could back them to compete but Mike Gooley is in his 80’s and you would have to go some to boost their support base from their current poor numbers. I don’t think promotion/relegation should be taken away but I also feel you must be in a fit state, much like Exeter were, if the transition is to be successful. 

I think promotion for any club apart from L.Irish and Ealing would be a disaster for them and tbh I’m not sure it would do L.Irish any good to boomerang up & then down again. As I said before it should be enough to top the table in your division for the season to be a success. Enjoy!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 14:30
NM rightly says that NFL only play one cometition and that rugby should concentrate on a single product - with the aim of reducing the number of profesional players.

But he then does nto follow through.

If you believe that then the answer is a single European competiton with 32 teams playing in conferences and play-off structure so they have a 20 week season followed by 4 weeks of play-offs with 10 weeks of international season.  I would move 6-nations later so it sits at the end of the regular season immediately before the play-offs.

Then there could be a semi-pro English league underneath with 16 team league - adding two of the current pro sides and two sides from National 1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 14:33
The only acceptable standard a ground/facility should have to comply with is the Health & Safety Laws.  I am sure most clubs would look to develop their ground over the longer term if they had a more reaslistic chance of filling them.  How many times does a Premiership club have their grounds at full capacity?  
 
The sensible approach would be for clubs who do not meet the capacity requirements is to have a staged process of say 5,500 capacity in year 1, 7,500 year 2, 9,000 year 3 etc. etc.  This would mean clubs do not plough money in to white elephants and put them onto a financial cliff edge.
Financial disasters only occur from poor mis-management, if you know you only have x income you shouldn't spend 2x if you do not have that additional investor guarantee.
 
The Exeter model doesn't exist, rich owner, prime land for residential development at peak of the market.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Blue Eyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 04:34
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:


If you believe that then the answer is a single European competiton with 32 teams playing in conferences and play-off structure so they have a 20 week season followed by 4 weeks of play-offs with 10 weeks of international season.  I would move 6-nations later so it sits at the end of the regular season immediately before the play-offs.

Then there could be a semi-pro English league underneath with 16 team league - adding two of the current pro sides and two sides from National 1.


I would personally be in favour of this set-up. The current situation massively advantages the Irish team and they are doing a lot with a significantly smaller player pool than England.

What PRL need to understand is that success by England is the main driver of player and spectator numbers. This will ultimately benefit them too.

Sarries have spent millions. Their team is brilliant and Allianz park is still not full every week...
Run it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 08:17
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

The only acceptable standard a ground/facility should have to comply with is the Health & Safety Laws.  I am sure most clubs would look to develop their ground over the longer term if they had a more reaslistic chance of filling them.  How many times does a Premiership club have their grounds at full capacity?  
 
The sensible approach would be for clubs who do not meet the capacity requirements is to have a staged process of say 5,500 capacity in year 1, 7,500 year 2, 9,000 year 3 etc. etc.  This would mean clubs do not plough money in to white elephants and put them onto a financial cliff edge.
Financial disasters only occur from poor mis-management, if you know you only have x income you shouldn't spend 2x if you do not have that additional investor guarantee.
 
The Exeter model doesn't exist, rich owner, prime land for residential development at peak of the market.

Personally I find that whole minimum standards criteria really hypocritical. Indeed it was 18 years ago that London Irish were still playing at The Avenue which certainly would not have met the standards nowadays. What really changed since then?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 12:16
Self preservation - so set rules to keep the peasants out Robb
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 13:55
I don't see the relevance of London Irish playing at The Avenue 18 years ago.  Back then they never attracted anywhere near 10k (you could argue that they haven't done that very often in the last 15 years either Wink ) even if they could have accommodated them.  They moved to a stadium that meets the criteria long before the criteria were put in place.

You could equally point out that 20 years ago there was a raised grassy bank along one side of The Stoop, but Quins have slowly rebuilt so that they have a very nice ground, albeit with views spoiled by punters heading to the bar every 40 seconds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 14:12
Please come back more often Mark. #realist
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2018 at 22:47
I remember when rugby used to be about the game not the money, it had laws we understood. Now it will be lawyers and money brokers running the show with the actual game more as a side show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2018 at 19:17
the private equity deal for the Prem has concluded today for a sum just north of £200m...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2018 at 23:23
I actually hope that the CVC partnership does help the Premiership long term. If it helps get debt down, then clubs might be less concerned about immediate survival, and therefore less hostile to relegation (at least that is how I'd look at it with rose-tinted glasses). However, more importantly, I'm hoping that CVC can bring some more professionalism to the business and marketing side of the game. The PRL is pathetic at marketing. To give you an example, my dad was visiting from the states, and I booked us tickets to watch the Premiership final between Exeter and Wasps two years ago. My old man was quite excited and wanted to buy some Chiefs kit. Was there any kit available from official sellers at the game? NO! What kind of idiotic organization would pull that? And then to have the temerity to complain about being cash strapped? What stores carry PRL kit? I actually asked in my office (about ten people) who could name any of the Premiership clubs, and I got Saracens, Tigers, Bath, and Gloucester. Pathetic. I can only hope that CVC helps, and that maybe, just maybe, a rising tide will lift all boats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2018 at 12:57
Originally posted by gerg_861 gerg_861 wrote:

I actually hope that the CVC partnership does help the Premiership long term. If it helps get debt down, then clubs might be less concerned about immediate survival, and therefore less hostile to relegation (at least that is how I'd look at it with rose-tinted glasses). However, more importantly, I'm hoping that CVC can bring some more professionalism to the business and marketing side of the game. The PRL is pathetic at marketing. To give you an example, my dad was visiting from the states, and I booked us tickets to watch the Premiership final between Exeter and Wasps two years ago. My old man was quite excited and wanted to buy some Chiefs kit. Was there any kit available from official sellers at the game? NO! What kind of idiotic organization would pull that? And then to have the temerity to complain about being cash strapped? What stores carry PRL kit? I actually asked in my office (about ten people) who could name any of the Premiership clubs, and I got Saracens, Tigers, Bath, and Gloucester. Pathetic. I can only hope that CVC helps, and that maybe, just maybe, a rising tide will lift all boats.

I wouldn't raise your hopes too much. The Premiership clubs have been spending money they haven't got for years now so now they will be spending money they have got for a year or so before returning to spending money they haven't got again.

A properly enforced salary cap might help but then again certain clubs would no doubt get around that yet again by spending money they haven't got on expensive lawyers and "compensation" payments to enable them to continue spending money they haven't got!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2018 at 13:39
Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stoatgobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2018 at 09:14
Why Leicester Tigers should be relegated

https://www.sportinglife.com/rugby-union/news/why-leicester-should-go-down/156263

and why the Championship should thank them for it, if it happens.
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