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Ring-fencing... again

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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 19:02
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Can anyone provide any information/evidence that Premiership teams who aren't in relegation danger blood in more youngsters?

It is a crucial part of their argument that if you remove the threat of relegation they will bring more Academy players through, but is it true?



Most certainly play virtually 2nd XV sides in the cup competition, the proposal to scrap this if increasing the teams to 13 would mean reduced chances for these academy players.

I would say they normally play youngsters when they have to, I.e. Through injuries or unavailability because of suspension or international calls
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pirate Pig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 21:13
Ring fencing would not improve the premiership or aide player development.There would still be a need to finish in the top 6 to qualify for the Heineken Champions cup and get a top 4 finish in the Premiership.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 07:33
Originally posted by Pirate Pig Pirate Pig wrote:

Ring fencing would not improve the premiership or aide player development.There would still be a need to finish in the top 6 to qualify for the Heineken Champions cup and get a top 4 finish in the Premiership.

Exactly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Joy of (Level) 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 08:37
On his R5 show last night Matt Dawson, a ring-fencing advocate, said that the plan was to have a 13 team Premiership, the existing 12................................and "Leeds"!?🤔
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stadium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 09:38
Good news as stated in Guardian Article by Kitson yesterday was the new RFU boss Melville does not support Ring Fencing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 10:39
Actually, I think Melville said that ringfencing couldn't be introduced this season.  He did go on to show some unwarranted bias by stating that he didn't want to see either Newcastle or Sale relegated.
 
I will admit to being increasingly ambivalent about the idea of ring fencing.  As a Bristol supporter I have seen first hand how difficult it is even for a well supported and financially strong side to bridge the gap between Championship and Premiership.  We have all seen how promotion without adequate planning can result in the demise of a club.
 
The example of rugby league is instructive.  A sport that has been professional for well over a century has gone through many models including ringfencing the top division and a variety of different play-off formats.  It is going to have yet another one for next season.  What chance does Union have to get it right after less than 25 years as a professional game?
 
Perhaps we should look to France as a way forward.  They have had league structure since the late 19th century and yet are still experimenting with different ways of deciding promotion and relegation.  The crucial difference is that the top two divisions are administered and controlled by the same body and although there are big commercial differences between individual clubs there is nothing like the difference in funding and support between the two divisions.  Surely we ought to be able to come up with something similar?  Or do we just admit that at present the state of professional RU can only support 13 or maybe 14 clubs and even those will mainly be run at a loss, unless there is some sort of closed playing environment that enables the financial risks to be controlled and mitigated. 
 
Does anyone think that London Irish will survive in anything like its current state if it doesn't achieve promotion this season?  Or that if Trailfinders top the league and manage, somehow, to pass the audit, it would be anything other than cannonfodder in the Premiership?
 
I'm afraid that the current structure just isn't right for a minority spectator sport in what are still, historically speaking, its early days.  That isn't to say I reject the notion of promotion and relegation it's just that how we are working at the moment is so deeply flawed we should be looking at other ways to work.  Or we acknowledge that the game in England made fundamental errors right at the beginning of professionalism and needs to start with a blank slate.  Good luck with that.  If I was Nigel Wray and had sunk millions into Saracens I think I'd be less than happy to find that the RFU resurrected the old divisional structures and Saracens (along with Quins, Irish, LS etc etc) were now just a feeder for London.  He'd certainly be looking at compensation or leading a breakaway.  Can a loss-making governing body cope with that?
 
Lots of questions and uncertainty.  Not so many answers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 14:06
I think that the interesting thing here is that nobody is happy, and there are compelling arguments on both sides of the fence. I work in commercial management for a big multi-national in the city, and I spend a big chunk of each week brokering deals that work for multiple parties. So from a "head" perspective, I can imagine half a dozen permutations that would balance the considerations of the PRL, RFU, and Championship clubs - and none of them will be perfect.
 
I think that the key to this discussion being so never ending is that people keep looking at this as a zero sum game, as if the Championship folding would (for example) lead to Harlequins picking up all of Ealing's fans and RFU funding. This obviously isn't true.
 
Therefore, the best long term solution must be one that grows the overall rugby pie while protecting as many interests as possible. Growing the rugby pie would be defined as:
 
* Increased average annual attendances across all tiers
* Decreased losses (note that I don't say increased revenues)
 
To achieve the above, I would suggest that you'd need a system that did the following:
1. Acknowledged past investments in some way via shares in overall rugby revenue and/or additional rights at a particular tier.
2. Gives more exposure to non-Premiership clubs (this is key to increasing attendances).
 
Personally, the permutation that I'd go for would be:
1. Expand the Premiership to 14 teams.
2. Bring the Championship into the PRL and expand to 14 teams.
3. Have the possibility of 2 up 2 down promotion relegation (across at least the top 3 tiers).
4. P share holders (and I'd create a similar share system for the Championship clubs), if in the relegation zone, have the right to a play off to retain their place in the Premiership.
5. Non-P share holders automatically go down.
6. Winners have the option of taking the parachute payment instead of going up.
7. Scrap the stupid cups to allow for the longer seasons.
 
I know that there would be some level of concern about diluting RFU funding, but I'd hope that that would be offset by the additional stability, and potential additional TV revenues for a better promoted Premiership D2.
 
As I've said, there are lots, and lots of permutations, the one above is just my favourite from a "head" perspective. From a heart perspective, I'd love to see 3 up 3 down with playoffs like in football, or Super 8s!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 14:22
Originally posted by SirBurger SirBurger wrote:

Pirates getting promotion would be disastrous for Exeter, so it is no surprise that the Chiefs want to ring-fence the league. 
I don't think that's necessarily the case. Sure, they'd lose a few spectators from Cornwall who currently go to Sandy Park, but I'm not sure it's a very large percentage of their crowds. The local derbies would be huge and raise the profile of both clubs massively, so in the long run Exeter might actually attract even bigger crowds. I admit it would impact on Exeter's player development, however, as they loan out young players to The Pirates at the moment and they always leave as better players. They'd also (hopefully) no longer be able to hoover up all the top talent in Cornwall and the likes of Jack Nowell and Luke Cowan-Dickie would be able to stay in Cornwall.
So life wouldn't be quite as comfortable for Exeter as it is now, but it wouldn't be disastrous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 14:58
Originally posted by gerg_861 gerg_861 wrote:

I think that the interesting thing here is that nobody is happy, and there are compelling arguments on both sides of the fence. I work in commercial management for a big multi-national in the city, and I spend a big chunk of each week brokering deals that work for multiple parties. So from a "head" perspective, I can imagine half a dozen permutations that would balance the considerations of the PRL, RFU, and Championship clubs - and none of them will be perfect.
 
I think that the key to this discussion being so never ending is that people keep looking at this as a zero sum game, as if the Championship folding would (for example) lead to Harlequins picking up all of Ealing's fans and RFU funding. This obviously isn't true.
 
Therefore, the best long term solution must be one that grows the overall rugby pie while protecting as many interests as possible. Growing the rugby pie would be defined as:
 
* Increased average annual attendances across all tiers
* Decreased losses (note that I don't say increased revenues)
 
To achieve the above, I would suggest that you'd need a system that did the following:
1. Acknowledged past investments in some way via shares in overall rugby revenue and/or additional rights at a particular tier.
2. Gives more exposure to non-Premiership clubs (this is key to increasing attendances).
 
Personally, the permutation that I'd go for would be:
1. Expand the Premiership to 14 teams.
2. Bring the Championship into the PRL and expand to 14 teams.
3. Have the possibility of 2 up 2 down promotion relegation (across at least the top 3 tiers).
4. P share holders (and I'd create a similar share system for the Championship clubs), if in the relegation zone, have the right to a play off to retain their place in the Premiership.
5. Non-P share holders automatically go down.
6. Winners have the option of taking the parachute payment instead of going up.
7. Scrap the stupid cups to allow for the longer seasons.
 
I know that there would be some level of concern about diluting RFU funding, but I'd hope that that would be offset by the additional stability, and potential additional TV revenues for a better promoted Premiership D2.
 
As I've said, there are lots, and lots of permutations, the one above is just my favourite from a "head" perspective. From a heart perspective, I'd love to see 3 up 3 down with playoffs like in football, or Super 8s!

A lot of intelligent things said there sir. If only it were possible.....
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 15:51
The one thing that is driving this is player salary expectations. There is a limited market worldwide so there is an argument that salaries should come down.

This is coming from a National 1 perspective where promotion to the Championship is a poisoned chalice and the Premiership are just overpaid nancy boys. For good running rugby watch National 1 - speak to any Rotherham supporter - it's where rugby meets supporters, not fans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Fishwick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 06:46
Almost makes you wish Mark "Ramshackle" Smith were here to offer his two penn'orth.

Almost.
That's easy for you to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 09:23
But because Football in France is not as dominant as in UK French TV have more money to spend on other sport - so French clubs have more money than any others in Europe and they drive up salary expectations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote French Connection Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 09:58
I'd echo Camquin's thoughts entirely. We live in France now and I'm Head Coach of a club in Federale 3 - that's level 5. We're not very good at all - I'd guess equivalent to Level 7 in England - but we get 500 for every home match and in our local derby last month we played in front of 4000 believe it or not. Federale 1 is televised here on terrestrial TV - I watched a game last night. While football is the biggest sport it isn't anywhere near as dominant as the UK and therefore TV spread things around, with a lot going to rugby. The Pro 2 clubs are huge and really well funded - to a much greater extent than the Championship. Interestingly I don't think they're much better though.
Money is rife everywhere because of this and even at our level there are teams paying 400-500 Euros a game, which is ridiculous if you saw how average they are. The game survives here because of massive local interest at every rural and small town club but it's getting harder and harder like everywhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 18:43
A great interview from Ben Ward on Rugby Pass all about Ring Fencing and what Ealing is doing to bridge the gap between it and the premiership clubs. It is a long read, so the precis is that Ealing is building their own academy with three year contracts, a new gym, and a new stand that will bring capacity at Vallis Way to 5000+ (ground broke thos week).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 18:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 19:58
If there was promotion and relegation in and out of the pools, say the bottom of each pool being relegated, then this would work for me. A lot to work out though, especially minimum standards etc. but this could well keep everyone happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 20:23
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

Nigel Melville floats the idea of a 16-team Prem, in 2 conferences...


This has been 'floated' on and off for a good many years.
Ideally, it would be accepted. Realistically, the pigs with their snouts already in the trough would never permit it.
Nice try though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 20:40
But which 16 would be in
Exeter, Bath, Worcester, Gloucester, Bristol, Sale

Newcastle, Leicester, Northampton, Wasps, Saracens, Harlequins, London Irish.

Who would be invited Cornish Pirates, Yorkshire, Ealing??

Edited by KnightsBoy - 09 Dec 2018 at 20:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 20:52
Originally posted by KnightsBoy KnightsBoy wrote:

But which 16 would be in
Exeter, Bath, Worcester, Gloucester, Bristol, Sale

Newcastle, Leicester, Northampton, Wasps, Saracens, Harlequins, London Irish.

Who would be invited Cornish Pirates, Yorkshire, Ealing??
 

Has to be league positions.  This would also help the better Premiership clubs in Europe as they could rest star players against the weaker clubs like the Irish teams do.

Probably can't do it on Geography as you may get a stronger league between the two.


Edited by The Blues - 09 Dec 2018 at 20:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 21:27
When the club realise they are giving away a third of their TV income to CVC, do you thing they would vote to dilute the remaining income from 13th shares to 16th shares. 

NM speaks of H&A games within your pool - 14 games.
If you add a single game against sides in the other pool that would be 22 plus up to 4 play-offs 
Is that enough, even if you do not play during internationals.

Melville speaks of reducing the numbers of professional players.
Even with fewer games, you need cover to cope with injuries - I cannot see how you would got much below 45 per squad so 720 - plus whatever is needed for level 2.

What would happen at level 2?
Would there be promotion / relegation?


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