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RFU confirm plans for NCA Cup competition

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Sid James View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 22:34
Originally posted by Dagfish Dagfish wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Going off at a tangent slightly but what exactly constitutes a "Community club"? We could all put our own slant on it but is there an official definition?
It does not appear to have any bearing on what level your 1st XV play at as clubs as high as the Championship are, or at least claim to be, a community club (for example Ampthill, I haven't checked for others) whereas other clubs who you took for granted would be community clubs playing at the lower levels yet fill very few of what we might class as necessary criteria. Such clubs just run a pro or semi-pro 1st XV squad and very little else with no lower senior teams and very little activity in terms of M & J's

There's a page on the RFU website discussing Community Amateur Sports Clubs - see https:///www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/legal-and-administration/casc

Basically, it has to be member-owned, non-profit-making, and must have 50% of the membership participating in the sport.

I dont disagree with your basic description but surely a 'Community' Club  is a Club that engages with the local community?
A Community Club should have more than one senior team, ladies teams and have an active Mini Junior Section with boys and girls teams.
It's not good enough to just say you are a 'Community Club' on your website. 


Edited by Sid James - 03 Jan 2021 at 22:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 22:59
If they’ve crowd funded and then claimed furlough then I’d say they are running a professional operation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 23:00
Originally posted by Dagfish Dagfish wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Going off at a tangent slightly but what exactly constitutes a "Community club"? We could all put our own slant on it but is there an official definition?
It does not appear to have any bearing on what level your 1st XV play at as clubs as high as the Championship are, or at least claim to be, a community club (for example Ampthill, I haven't checked for others) whereas other clubs who you took for granted would be community clubs playing at the lower levels yet fill very few of what we might class as necessary criteria. Such clubs just run a pro or semi-pro 1st XV squad and very little else with no lower senior teams and very little activity in terms of M & J's

There's a page on the RFU website discussing Community Amateur Sports Clubs - see https:///www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/legal-and-administration/casc

Basically, it has to be member-owned, non-profit-making, and must have 50% of the membership participating in the sport.


Most rugby clubs meet the non-profit-making criteria
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 07:25
Very interesting this, so just make sure we have the facts as I really do not understand this.
How can Community Club. ( as set out above) claim from UK Gov?

The club has a full time salaried D of R, who has  been at the club some 18 months having moved from a National 2 Club, as well as other salaried people. 

It was one of the biggest if not the biggest signer of players close season, not knowing when and if we will play in 20/21 or when we will play again. But players still joining from far and wide, Rotherham, Ampthill etc not exactly local!

It has a full coaching staff, including people working for the club full time on projects at local schools.

It asked for £40k in a Crowd funder in April saying the club would go bust, which it raised about 50% of.
The D of R posts a pod cast/ interview each week so is clearly still working for the club full time.

Now its come to light that the UK Gov are paying Furlough to people/players at the club.

They are not governed by the Elite Sport rule and have been back training.

Yet they claim they are a Community Sports club. How can you be that? 





Edited by Scrumtime - 04 Jan 2021 at 08:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 09:03
Originally posted by Dagfish Dagfish wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Going off at a tangent slightly but what exactly constitutes a "Community club"? We could all put our own slant on it but is there an official definition?
It does not appear to have any bearing on what level your 1st XV play at as clubs as high as the Championship are, or at least claim to be, a community club (for example Ampthill, I haven't checked for others) whereas other clubs who you took for granted would be community clubs playing at the lower levels yet fill very few of what we might class as necessary criteria. Such clubs just run a pro or semi-pro 1st XV squad and very little else with no lower senior teams and very little activity in terms of M & J's

There's a page on the RFU website discussing Community Amateur Sports Clubs - see https:///www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/legal-and-administration/casc

Basically, it has to be member-owned, non-profit-making, and must have 50% of the membership participating in the sport.

The Community Amateur Sports Club is a specific legal structure which replicates some elements of the charity structure. It is not the structure used by most Community Clubs. For example, it is not appropriate for any Club paying players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 09:10
Just to support Camquin here, Esher are in a similar position. None of our players are on Furlough but all of our staff are and our DoR was in the first lockdown. Subsequently he and the coaches have been working on reduced pay. Our players trained from July to November under the RFU and Government regulations but none are on retainers so none received Furlough through the Club, although many were furloughed through their main employers.

Our Office and Ckubhouse staff continue on Furlough, we have a full range of legal community activity taking place at the Club and they service that to help generate income to keep us afloat. Remember under the current Furlough scheme you can work some hours and receive Furlough money for those you don’t work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 10:01
Sorry if Im being thick 

But I understood and happy to be corrected that Furlough was too be paid for, the suspension of your full time job by the UK Gov until the country gets back on its feet, is that not correct?

Hence why I asked the question re Cambridge match fees to players and the D of R clearly working still for the club, re pod casts etc etc 

But you say that's not the case, as your D of R who works in the City I understand and one of your coaches is head of rugby at Whitgift, yet you can still claim Furlough for them as a part time job?

Does that not leave this open to mass abuse. 
I could work full time during the day, but Ive lost my pub job in the evening, so I could claim Furlough for that loss although I still have another full time salary.

Im really suprised by this, totally understand office staff etc... but the others have come as a shock thats all.


Edited by Scrumtime - 04 Jan 2021 at 10:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 11:40
Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

If they’ve crowd funded and then claimed furlough then I’d say they are running a professional operation

I would disagree.
If Club members and friends come together and work hard try to replace funds lost due to restrictons/closure, that does notmake the Club 'professional'. It does suggest that the Club is proactive and members are intelligent enough to realise that there is a means of replacing lost funds i.e. Crowdfunding.
How much a Club makes from a Crowdfunding site depends greatly on the efforts of volunteers and Club members. Hardly the description of a 'professional' operation/organisation.
As for furloughing players, legal advice at the time suggested that should a Club not furlough contracted players, the Club coud be open to future claims for loss of earnings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 12:00
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

If they’ve crowd funded and then claimed furlough then I’d say they are running a professional operation

I would disagree.
If Club members and friends come together and work hard try to replace funds lost due to restrictons/closure, that does notmake the Club 'professional'. It does suggest that the Club is proactive and members are intelligent enough to realise that there is a means of replacing lost funds i.e. Crowdfunding.
How much a Club makes from a Crowdfunding site depends greatly on the efforts of volunteers and Club members. Hardly the description of a 'professional' operation/organisation.
As for furloughing players, legal advice at the time suggested that should a Club not furlough contracted players, the Club coud be open to future claims for loss of earnings.

You can’t on one hand go begging to the community on one hand saying save little old us whilst on the other going out making big signings and using government money to furlough them.

It’s proper brass neck time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 12:50
Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

If they’ve crowd funded and then claimed furlough then I’d say they are running a professional operation

I would disagree.
If Club members and friends come together and work hard try to replace funds lost due to restrictons/closure, that does notmake the Club 'professional'. It does suggest that the Club is proactive and members are intelligent enough to realise that there is a means of replacing lost funds i.e. Crowdfunding.
How much a Club makes from a Crowdfunding site depends greatly on the efforts of volunteers and Club members. Hardly the description of a 'professional' operation/organisation.
As for furloughing players, legal advice at the time suggested that should a Club not furlough contracted players, the Club coud be open to future claims for loss of earnings.

You can’t on one hand go begging to the community on one hand saying save little old us whilst on the other going out making big signings and using government money to furlough them.

It’s proper brass neck time

Well you can as it's not illegal. Morality of course is another matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 13:23
I believe the original question Thatbloke asked was what is a community club? IMHO a community club is one that serves its local rugby community and beyond. This does not exclude the club from paying either coaches or players. It means that it offers the highest possible standard of rugby for its playing members whilst also providing opportunities for those adult players who are not good enough/do not want to commit to train/play regularly. In addition it offers opportunities for women players, mini and youth players and for veterans. Ideally it assists in exposing non rugby players in local schools to the game and offers a pathway for them to take up the sport. Ideally it's facilities are used by local non rugby groups and it has links with and supports local charities. I do not know what all the Championship clubs do but as a friends son plays at Richmond I see their FB page and from what I can see they tick a good number of these boxes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 13:28
Confusion running rife here methinks!?
Community Amateur Sports Clubs (otherwise referred to as CASC) must be strictly amateur other than paid coaching. Any club can apply for CASC status if they fulfil this requirement for which in return they receive various benefits - discounted utility bills for example along with several other advantages. 
I am absolutely certain that none of the high flying clubs "branding" themselves as a Community club are registered as CASC - more they like to think such a "title" gives them a certain respect and goodwill within their local community because they happen to send coaches into schools along with other "worthy" causes. (as you have just indicated Marigold!) 
Just as an example, and I am not intending to be critical of this particular club, but when Ampthill came to us around 10 years ago for a Level 5 fixture they were flying the "Community Club" flag yet half their players arrived in their Club sponsored Aston Martins and the rest in a mini-bus from Wales along with Head Coach, Paul Turner. To this day they still describe themselves as a community club but will not be CASC registered (I hope!!!) 


Edited by Thatbloke - 04 Jan 2021 at 13:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 14:19
TB you do not have to have CASC status to be a Community Club. I am not sure it matters what mode of transport coaches/players arrive at a club in if they are delivering a programme/session of coaching that the recipients benefit from. Who knows maybe some of the youngsters they coach will be inspired to improve to such a level they too can obtain a sponsored Aston Martin. Clubs earn respect and goodwill through what they actually do not what they call themselves and in my experience with less and less state schools now providing rugby in the curriculum the community work of the clubs is becoming even more important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 14:31
Indeed Marigold - I think what I was trying to clarify is that there are 2 different aspects in the rugby world as to what constitutes a community club. You can be a CASC that actually contributes very little to the community or a club that does a great deal for and within the community with or without the self awarded title
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 15:29
Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

If they’ve crowd funded and then claimed furlough then I’d say they are running a professional operation

I would disagree.
If Club members and friends come together and work hard try to replace funds lost due to restrictons/closure, that does notmake the Club 'professional'. It does suggest that the Club is proactive and members are intelligent enough to realise that there is a means of replacing lost funds i.e. Crowdfunding.
How much a Club makes from a Crowdfunding site depends greatly on the efforts of volunteers and Club members. Hardly the description of a 'professional' operation/organisation.
As for furloughing players, legal advice at the time suggested that should a Club not furlough contracted players, the Club coud be open to future claims for loss of earnings.

You can’t on one hand go begging to the community on one hand saying save little old us whilst on the other going out making big signings and using government money to furlough them.

It’s proper brass neck time

Let's start again. 
You don't say "You can't" when we and many other Clubs throughout the country clearly 'can' and 'have' put together perfectly legal Crowdfunding sites. Take a look at Donny Knights, Otley, Tynedale, Stockport and others. Also, it is not "begging to the community" when 90% of the donations come from existing Club members.
Who has made any "big singings" this season?
We had no intention of furloughing contracted players until receiving legal advice that we should - as I said earlier.
I don't know what Club you follow or how well your Club has coped during the enforced restrictions but, I hope your Club has some members who are prepared to get on with surviving rather than knocking Clubs who act proactively during difficult times. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedPete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 23:58
I think we've rather wandered off-topic here!
With tonight's announcement, looks any hope that the NCA cup can proceed is lost.
Schadenfreude - such a big word for something so small-minded
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2021 at 07:11
RedPete we did:

However the point was that a club that said in April 2020 and I quote 

With the sudden collapse in our income we now find ourselves in need of financial support. Having scrutinized our finances for the next 3 months, the Committee assess that we need £40,000to see us through this crisis.

That raised less than half according to the total  has then recruited a heap of players, 18 ish according to their web site, with people joining from far and wide as in Rotherham, Bedford, Ampthill none of which are exactly local to Cambridge who are  now being funded, on what on the face of it looks like UK Gov money, how can that be ?

Agreed, NCA cup is over, which is a shame. At best we are out of this Feb half term as Borris said. The RFU have always said they will give 4 weeks contact before we start, so thats a mid March start at best, with the season coming to an end April. You factor in Easter it just is not going to happen.








Edited by Scrumtime - 05 Jan 2021 at 07:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2021 at 13:49
Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:

Sorry if Im being thick 

But I understood and happy to be corrected that Furlough was too be paid for, the suspension of your full time job by the UK Gov until the country gets back on its feet, is that not correct?

Hence why I asked the question re Cambridge match fees to players and the D of R clearly working still for the club, re pod casts etc etc 

But you say that's not the case, as your D of R who works in the City I understand and one of your coaches is head of rugby at Whitgift, yet you can still claim Furlough for them as a part time job?

Does that not leave this open to mass abuse. 
I could work full time during the day, but Ive lost my pub job in the evening, so I could claim Furlough for that loss although I still have another full time salary.

Im really suprised by this, totally understand office staff etc... but the others have come as a shock thats all.

Corrections - our DoR works through his own company. He furloughed himself through that company during the first lockdown. We have not claimed Furlough money for him or our Head Coach, the latter was furloughed by his School.

What we were able to do, which position you describe, was claim Furlough money for our Office and Bar staff under their contracts with us. 

You are correct, however, in that people working part-time for Clubs and other places could be furloughed in the first lockdown on the basis of expected earnings. That is legally correct but it is a different question to ask if it is morally correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2021 at 13:52
Originally posted by RedPete RedPete wrote:

I think we've rather wandered off-topic here!
With tonight's announcement, looks any hope that the NCA cup can proceed is lost.

NCA Executive meets next week. The RFU have given guidance to NCA, DOCs and CBs to organise short-term local competitions in March - May for those Clubs who want to participate. This would probably be under adapted laws - no scrums, no mauls - and would work within whatever restrictions remain in place then. The season dos not have to end on 320th April, that has already been made clear by the RFU.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2021 at 14:01
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Originally posted by RedPete RedPete wrote:

I think we've rather wandered off-topic here!
With tonight's announcement, looks any hope that the NCA cup can proceed is lost.

NCA Executive meets next week. The RFU have given guidance to NCA, DOCs and CBs to organise short-term local competitions in March - May for those Clubs who want to participate. This would probably be under adapted laws - no scrums, no mauls - and would work within whatever restrictions remain in place then. The season dos not have to end on 320th April, that has already been made clear by the RFU.

Thank you for that info: Think several clubs will lose ground on 30th April to Cricket so think there will be less of an uptake
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