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Revolt in the North

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Surreyben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surreyben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 16:16
Originally posted by Redted Redted wrote:

What would the Cornish clubs say if half the Devon sides decided to pull out of the Devon/Cornwall league and play in a Devon Merit table.
 
Makes perfect sense then the CRFU could then add 2nd teams to the Cornwall Leagues and the top team could be promoted to Western Counties West (providing they were a 1st team).  You would get a similar standard of competition with minimal travelling.
I've been promoting this idea for years but if falls on deaf ears unfortunately.
As someone also involved in Cornish rugby (at a Level 8 club), I would say that 2nd XV rugby is in serious trouble in Cornwall - maybe not quite as serious as Colts Rugby - but only a handful of teams perhaps, three or four fulfil their fixtures regularly in the 2nd XV division in Cornwall and walkovers are also a major issue in the Cornwall One and Two at Level Nine and Ten. Meetings were held about a month ago where the stark issues were laid out, so I think it'd be less easy that that, Redted, although I do see where you are coming from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 11:32
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Big fish in a small pond. Sums up the arrogance of the majority of Lancs teams very well.
 
Yes because Clubs on the Wirral aren't arrogant one bit. Enjoy playing Wallasey every three weeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 12:52
Originally posted by Surreyben Surreyben wrote:

Originally posted by Redted Redted wrote:

What would the Cornish clubs say if half the Devon sides decided to pull out of the Devon/Cornwall league and play in a Devon Merit table.
 
Makes perfect sense then the CRFU could then add 2nd teams to the Cornwall Leagues and the top team could be promoted to Western Counties West (providing they were a 1st team).  You would get a similar standard of competition with minimal travelling.
I've been promoting this idea for years but if falls on deaf ears unfortunately.
As someone also involved in Cornish rugby (at a Level 8 club), I would say that 2nd XV rugby is in serious trouble in Cornwall - maybe not quite as serious as Colts Rugby - but only a handful of teams perhaps, three or four fulfil their fixtures regularly in the 2nd XV division in Cornwall and walkovers are also a major issue in the Cornwall One and Two at Level Nine and Ten. Meetings were held about a month ago where the stark issues were laid out, so I think it'd be less easy that that, Redted, although I do see where you are coming from.


What is the cause of this (presumed) lack of players in Cornwall?

With regards to Colts in Cornwall, I do see that they reached the final of the National U20 competition last week.. Hammered by Yorkshire, but they did get to the final.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 13:10
Main problem (for rugby) in Cornwall is that we bordered by water on three sides and the county is around 90 miles long.  Most other places you can travel in all directions we only have 1.
So the County needs the best possible structure for the teams within it's boundary's.  To my mind that means all playing all as we used to do before leagues, local competition was strong and playing numbers were high.  As Surrey Ben says 2nd team rugby is very poor as the teams have few teams to play within a sensible travelling distance, if you travel to Devon and play the Devon teams always renege on the return fixture.
So I would dismantle the Cornwall & Devon league, putting the teams into their respective county divisions.  I would then incorporate the 2nd teams into the county league structure this would provide more matches for the 2nd teams, less miss-matches as we could have 3 divisions instead of 2.
Top 1st team to Western Counties if they wish to be promoted. 
This would also revive 2nd team fixtures against the local junior clubs, a welcome return to tradition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surreyben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 15:42
I certainly see where you are coming from Redted - definitely - the query I have is just how realistic this would be in terms of so few clubs having enough players. Several teams in Cornwall One and Two struggle to put out fifteen players each week.  Realistically its only Camborne, Launceston and St. Austell who regularly field a 2nd XV. The issue with Colts rugby is serious - many clubs have totally disbanded their Colts sides. Whilst Cornwall did reach the final of the U20s County Championship, the issue is that players are leaving rugby after U16s in large numbers, potentially because of going upcountry for college/university and then become involved out of Cornwall with the game. Clubs in Cornwall One and Two are considering how sustainable their futures are right now. The CRFU also blocked Camborne's 2nd XV from joining the Cornwall Leagues (Level 9/10) a couple of years ago as well, so that would also have to be overcome.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheGuv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 21:39
I think you all forget, being involved in the National leagues, just how badly clubs are being affected lower down. Saying that, I find it interesting that every year another national club seemingly goes bust; perhaps never to return.

Lancashire have made a brave call and I think other counties may well follow suit. Changes need to happen below the National league structure and this could be the catalyst.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2018 at 22:22
http://www.swrugby.co.uk/2018struc.pdf

Some areas have far more 2nd 3rd and even 4th teams in the leagues - Somerset, Dorset&Wilts and BBO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 03:25
Cumbria is not quite s cut off as Corrnwall - they could perhaps go East.
However half the men swing the other way - by which of course I mean league.
So Millom with an oficial population of 4000 has  a RU club, formed 1873, with two senior sides and a RL club - suspiciously climing to be formed the same year - with 2 XIIIs. Not sure if they run to a soccer club.

Whitehave, a metropolis at 23k population has two union clubs and three league clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 17:56
Is the revolt up north a reaction to the RFU deciding that clubs at that level will not be able to pay anyone to pay?

Will they reduce the number of players in a team and evolve their own rules (aah that is Rugby League).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 00:03
I have no idea.
The quoted reason was the travel time to Cumbria - but most of the sides did not travel to Cumbria.

They also quoted travel times of three hours - which seems excessive, even for a coach from Salford to Aspatria.

And of course, while the Lancastrian clubs went to Cumbria 4 times, the Cumbrian clubs drove south 10 times. And they had long journey times across the County.

Ironically a lot of those trips took the M6 A66 and went past Penrith - who had been transferred  East.

But if you have 16 leagues at level 7 - then each covers 3100 sq mi on average.
But people and clubs are not evenly spread.

The only way to reduce travel for the majority is to have more leagues in a wider flatter pyramid.
But that means bigger jumps between leagues.
And a huge amount of work to throw away the current divisions and potentially CBs and start again.
Especially as there is no guarantee more clubs will end up happier than they are now.

It appears that the vocal minority that wanted less travel has come to a local "solution" - so there should be less pressure to change the rest of the structure.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kingsheathlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 08:56
with the breakaway in Lancashire,how would the appointment of referees work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 09:01
It has been set up as an official lancashire RFU Merit table.
So is still covered by MADRefs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 12:24
So Altringham Kersal from Cheshire get level transferred to NLC.
The Cumbrian, and SLC 2&3 leagues are down to 8 sides and will play each other 3 times.
With one Manx team in each SLC league - 4 Lancashire clubs in each league get two trips a year to the Isle of Man. 

SLC 2&3 will be amalgamated if any more clubs withdraw.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 14:57
I imagine Altrincham will not be too impressed with that given there will be clubs such as Orrell and Aspull playing in South Lance/Cheshire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 15:28
Raider 999 
As far as I can tell the breakaway clubs are utterly against payment. 
One of their complaints was that the RFU was not going far enough.

I wonder if the RFU had dropped the restriction of only two leagues feeding into one and had separate Cumbrian, Lancashire and Cheshire leagues whether it would have stopped the winging. 

Not sure where Manx teams fit. I am told you can see Ramsey from Whitehaven - though it tends to be lost in the haze when I visit the in-law. The ferry is from Heysham and takes too long for a day trip. Flights are from Manchester, so Cheshire may make most sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CalderVale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 16:31
Already hearing clubs are appealing the level transfers. Don't think these league fixtures will be out soon if clubs still have time to move/transfer from SLC will they stay in 8 team leagues? Clubs, reading on Twitter, still have until 8th June to join Lancashire Leagues....Interesting times for Grassroots rugby and big shame blocks are not playing week in week out Saturday afternoon any more...Enjoy the summer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 17:33
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Raider 999 
As far as I can tell the breakaway clubs are utterly against payment. 
One of their complaints was that the RFU was not going far enough.

I wonder if the RFU had dropped the restriction of only two leagues feeding into one and had separate Cumbrian, Lancashire and Cheshire leagues whether it would have stopped the winging. 

Not sure where Manx teams fit. I am told you can see Ramsey from Whitehaven - though it tends to be lost in the haze when I visit the in-law. The ferry is from Heysham and takes too long for a day trip. Flights are from Manchester, so Cheshire may make most sense.


Historically the Manx team have played in the South Lancs/Cheshire league and for most teams in those leagues it is an away trip that they always look forward to. It must be a struggle for the Manx team when they have a cross-sea trip every other game. I know Douglas used to have quite a difference between their home and away results but over the last few years they have become a very strong outfit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Loo fighters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 18:48
For what it's worth, I don't understand the decision of clubs involved. They've struck off a couple of mid distance away games & possibly a visit to IOM. Most other games were already "local". Another of the reasons stated was the un level playing field, yet every club has that to deal with & at level 7,8 & 9 there can't be much difference in abilities, if there's one team striving for promotion then so be it, let them go. What happens if one or more of these teams in the future regains an appetite (£££) for a higher level of competition???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 19:39
It'll certainly be interesting to see how it works out for the Clubs involved and hopefully there will be some studies/research done on any changes in player retention rates.

I do feel sorry for the Cumbrian clubs who due to their location have been left somewhat adrift and have to travel if they wish to keep up a competitive fixture list.

I also imagine it's going to lead to an increase in mismatches and one sided results until both the new Lancashire league and the remaining Lancs/Cumbria/Cheshire leagues have settled down.




Edited by Count Ford - 02 Jun 2018 at 19:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 20:32
I am just wondering what effect this may have on other "outlying" regions of the RFU - East Anglia, Cornwall etc.Will the RFU take any notice or carry on as always "We know best."
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