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Re: Stadium For Cornwall Latest

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Stalwart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 09:41
Truth is that both Pirates and Ealing couldn't function without a massive financial input from their benefactors. That's the reality of The Championship at the moment. The plan is for The Pirates to become financially sustainable without that in the future, at the new stadium, basing it on the way Chiefs have managed things in Exeter. Good luck to Ealing. They seem to have the most realistic chance of upsetting Newcastle in the coming season. In my opinion the main difference between Pirates and Ealing is that here in Cornwall there is no competition - we are the only pro club and Truro City football are a long way off league status and don't have a massive following. At present a lot of people travel to Plymouth for football and Exeter for rugby, so we'd hope to attract at least some of them to the new stadium as we try to build a Premiership ready squad. 
 As others have mentioned, Ealing have a lot of competition from other rugby clubs and football teams, so they have a more difficult job to attract large numbers of supporters. I'd love to see Ealing break into the Premiership cartel, as long as it's kept open to give the rest of us a chance in years to come.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 10:50
I honestly believe that the move to Truro is going to be the best thing for the Pirates, and I totally agree with Stalwart in the fact that there is no competition down there for Pro Sport so they should start to get decent crowds (more money) Rugby Union is a popular sport in the South West, so I think the crowds will come. With that follows advertising (more money) and potentially the opportunity to break into the Premiership (more money) - the Exeter model. Good luck Pirates hope to see you, playing us, in the Prem one day although your chances are, in my opinion, more likely than ours in the next 5 to 10 years.


Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 11:00
A lot of good points being made and I admire the positive views expressed by those supporting this scheme BUT do the figures add up ?

It appears obvious to me that Exeter rely on support from Devon , Somerset and Cornwall and by all accounts have a sustainable model based on decent crowds, clever player recruitment/retention and sensible sponsorship. Pirates will be reliant upon support from Cornwall and you only have to look at Bristol to see how difficult building a squad can be even with a very committed sponsor and excellent gates.

Realistically Pirates need to look at Sale and Newcastle who have survived in recent seasons on modest crowds and effective player recruitment/retention. It was a shame to see Newcastle go down but TBH it was arguably more difficult for Dean R to attract players to the NE than for Steve D to get them to come to Manchester.

A multi use stadium with associated leisure/hospitality facilities makes sense but has to be exploited ruthlessly to remain viable. The cost of a reasonably competitive Prem squad is huge and needs to be carefully considered.

I have no doubt all will be revealed in due course but constructing both the facilities and the squad will take at least 5 years IMHO and even then there is no guarantee of Prem rugby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 11:21
Agree with a lot of the points made by castleparknight (thanks for the support) and Bigmal. I think you my be underestimating the passion for rugby in Cornwall, Bigmal. A prem team would attract massive crowds, especially for the derbies against the likes of Exeter, Glos and Bris. We also get a lot of away supporters who love to come to Cornwall for a long weekend, or even a week, to take in the rugby. We still get supporters from Saints and Quins turning up at Pirates!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 22:01
Quote :Stalwart:

In my opinion the main difference between Pirates and Ealing is that here in Cornwall there is no competition - we are the only pro club and Truro City football are a long way off league status and don't have a massive following. At present a lot of people travel to Plymouth for football and Exeter for rugby, so we'd hope to attract at least some of them to the new stadium as we try to build a Premiership ready squad. 

There are obviously many differences and similarities between the two clubs. They both have very wealthy benefactors who love Rugby .

The main difference in my opinion is that Ealing Trailfinders `owner` already owns the sports ground and runs a very successful income generating business from the site. Mike Gooley has transformed the site over twenty years.

He has already has a team / squad that are very close to being competitive at a higher level. Unfortunately I believe for all aspiring Rugby clubs the drawbridge is about to be raised and kept closed for ever more. 

In Ealings folklore history it said that they were invited to a meeting in a pub where the RFU was originally formed . It is said that the Ealing representative went to the wrong pub ! 

Ealing Trailfinders and others may have to look elsewhere for competitive Rugby outside of the RFU CVC , Premiership Rugby.

Premiership Rugby is owned by wealthy businessmen `benefactors`

FROM TRP

BRISTOL BEARS owner Steve Lansdown has retained his place as the richest owner in the Premiership.

Lansdown and his wife, Catherine, own the Bears via their company, Pula Sport Limited. He is the 83rd richest person in the country with £1.72bn.

That makes him worth five times more than Saracens’ boss Nigel Wray, right.

Finance king Lansdowne is clearly the wealthiest owner of a rugby club in this country.

Wray who made his £315m fortune through property and food is the majority shareholder in Sarries’ owners Premier Team Holdings.

Bath’s Bruce Craig, with £289m comes in third and is 448th in the latest UK rich list.

Sale Sharks’ Simon Orange is believed to be worth £25m, Gloucester’s Martin St Quinton £20.2m, Harlequins Duncan Saville £20m and Wasps Derek Richardson £67m.

Interestingly Premiership runners-up Exeter, the only club to operate at a profit, are owned by their 700 members with four shareholders acting as trustees.

And it is the same for East Midland rivals Leicester Tigers and Northampton Saints with nobody having an overall controlling shareholding.


Ironically Dicky Evans the Cornish Pirates wealthy benefactor is wealthier than all of the above if you believe what is on the internet !. Mike Gooley is a mere 80 Million or so but they both could literally buy a premiership club ( Leicester Tigers comes to mind ).

Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 23:11
No 7 -indeed it is alleged that Ealing and Wasps were invited to the inaugural meeting to found the RFU at the Pall Mall restaurant 9-10 Haymarket London on 26th January 1871 but both went to wrong locations and on the wrong date.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 07:54
All interesting stuff and Exeter emerge as the "go to" role model. Is it just that the other teams pay so much more to the players?

Support from.financial backers is a dangerous road especislly without significant tv revenue.

Ill be watching Pirates activities with intetest BUT would point out that you are talking a 6-7 hour riund trip evennfrom Bristol and the train tends to be pricey.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave G/w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 10:24
Stalwart, agree with what you say on some things, but people travel to Plymouth for the rugby as well. Only been 4 seasons out of the championship, and we’re in in for many years. Hope the club gets back up there one day, as there still is a massive fan base, and still get larger crowds than a few teams in the championship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 10:34
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Quote :Stalwart:

In my opinion the main difference between Pirates and Ealing is that here in Cornwall there is no competition - we are the only pro club and Truro City football are a long way off league status and don't have a massive following. At present a lot of people travel to Plymouth for football and Exeter for rugby, so we'd hope to attract at least some of them to the new stadium as we try to build a Premiership ready squad. 

There are obviously many differences and similarities between the two clubs. They both have very wealthy benefactors who love Rugby .

The main difference in my opinion is that Ealing Trailfinders `owner` already owns the sports ground and runs a very successful income generating business from the site. Mike Gooley has transformed the site over twenty years.

He has already has a team / squad that are very close to being competitive at a higher level. Unfortunately I believe for all aspiring Rugby clubs the drawbridge is about to be raised and kept closed for ever more. 

In Ealings folklore history it said that they were invited to a meeting in a pub where the RFU was originally formed . It is said that the Ealing representative went to the wrong pub ! 

Ealing Trailfinders and others may have to look elsewhere for competitive Rugby outside of the RFU CVC , Premiership Rugby.

Premiership Rugby is owned by wealthy businessmen `benefactors`

FROM TRP

BRISTOL BEARS owner Steve Lansdown has retained his place as the richest owner in the Premiership.

Lansdown and his wife, Catherine, own the Bears via their company, Pula Sport Limited. He is the 83rd richest person in the country with £1.72bn.

That makes him worth five times more than Saracens’ boss Nigel Wray, right.

Finance king Lansdowne is clearly the wealthiest owner of a rugby club in this country.

Wray who made his £315m fortune through property and food is the majority shareholder in Sarries’ owners Premier Team Holdings.

Bath’s Bruce Craig, with £289m comes in third and is 448th in the latest UK rich list.

Sale Sharks’ Simon Orange is believed to be worth £25m, Gloucester’s Martin St Quinton £20.2m, Harlequins Duncan Saville £20m and Wasps Derek Richardson £67m.

Interestingly Premiership runners-up Exeter, the only club to operate at a profit, are owned by their 700 members with four shareholders acting as trustees.

And it is the same for East Midland rivals Leicester Tigers and Northampton Saints with nobody having an overall controlling shareholding.


Ironically Dicky Evans the Cornish Pirates wealthy benefactor is wealthier than all of the above if you believe what is on the internet !. Mike Gooley is a mere 80 Million or so but they both could literally buy a premiership club ( Leicester Tigers comes to mind ).

 
Mike Gooley's annual "state of the nation" was released today for Ealing. I was very heartened to see that Trailfinders Sports Club Ltd. managed to break even last year on the back of increased (but disappointing) gates, facilities hire, and most importantly, London Broncos revenue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 10:36
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:


In Ealings folklore history it said that they were invited to a meeting in a pub where the RFU was originally formed . It is said that the Ealing representative went to the wrong pub ! 


 

Folklore's a funny thing - I've seen that story reported/written many times, including in the seminal "A Game for Hooligans" I think, but always as the rep from Wasps...

Wasps official history mentions it - https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/rugby-book-of-the-year-92047

as does their website. 


rugbyfootballhistory.com:

The 21 clubs that attended the first meeting chaired by the club captain of the Richmond Club, one E. C. Holmes, included Harlequins, Blackheath, Guy's Hospital, Civil Service, Wellington College, King's College and St. Paul's School which are still playing today. Other clubs now defunct, or playing under other names, were the picturesquely named Gipsies, Flamingoes, Mohicans, Wimbledon Hornets, Marlborough nomads, West Kent , Law, Lausanne, Addison, Belsize park, Ravenscourt park, Chapham rovers and a Greenwich club called Queen's House. Many famous provincial clubs, founded before 1871, were not founder members of the Rugby Football Union, though, of course, they became members later; among these were Bath, Bradford, Liverpool and Brighton.

Note: Belsize Park were disbanded in 1880 and many players joined Harlequins. A new Belsize club was founded in 1971.

One famous name that was missing, though, was the London club Wasps. Somehow they managed to send their representative to the wrong venue at the wrong time on the wrong day but another version of the story was that he went to a pub of the same name and after consuming a number of drinks was too Huckleberryly Pear to make it to the correct address after he realized his mistake.


keep the faith
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 10:47
Bradford of course were members of the Northern Union and then the Rugby League before defecting to the Football Association.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 11:43
Spot on - its an interesting topic the development of the game especially as most of the clubs who formed the Northern Union are still playing whether Union,League or indeed Association football. 

Any idea why names such as Saracens or Hornets were so popular back in the 19th C ? They appear down here in the SW as well and indeed up North ( Rochdale Hornets is the one I remember). Mohicans must have influenced Joe Marler!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 12:03
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Spot on - its an interesting topic the development of the game especially as most of the clubs who formed the Northern Union are still playing whether Union,League or indeed Association football. 

Any idea why names such as Saracens or Hornets were so popular back in the 19th C ? They appear down here in the SW as well and indeed up North ( Rochdale Hornets is the one I remember). Mohicans must have influenced Joe Marler!
 

Gypsies was common for wandering/touring sides - comes from cricket, where of course I Zingari are still very much a thing.

Wasps/hornets was down to the colours of the shirts rather than the other way round (colours following name) AIUI. 

Sarries, depending on who you believe, were either because they wanted to be like the Saracens, or because they'd already got local rivals (who they later merged with) called Crusaders.

Out in the provinces, eg Exeter Saracens, tended to be named after the more high profile London clubs - in much the same way as many clubs throughout England basically play in Richmond shirts because it was iconic.

Overall it seems to be that rugby followed the cricket approach (at the very beginning, when they were heavily London centric) for the non-county sides of just giving them whimsical names rather than geographic designations (also helped before they'd settled down to a regular ground).


Edited by billesleyexile - 18 Jul 2019 at 12:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surreyben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 12:13
As someone who has supported the stadium situation for years and years, I think the actual problem here is the fact that for, equally years and years the Stadium blog has been promising that things are "imminent" when, in actual fact they have not been. This creates a "cry wolf" scenario leading to some who simply don't believe the "imminent" announcements anymore.

I believe the stadium is closer than ever before, but unfortunately the stadium blog has created a rod for its own back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 12:49
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Spot on - its an interesting topic the development of the game especially as most of the clubs who formed the Northern Union are still playing whether Union,League or indeed Association football. 

Any idea why names such as Saracens or Hornets were so popular back in the 19th C ? They appear down here in the SW as well and indeed up North ( Rochdale Hornets is the one I remember). Mohicans must have influenced Joe Marler!
 

Gypsies was common for wandering/touring sides - comes from cricket, where of course I Zingari are still very much a thing.

Wasps/hornets was down to the colours of the shirts rather than the other way round (colours following name) AIUI. 

Sarries, depending on who you believe, were either because they wanted to be like the Saracens, or because they'd already got local rivals (who they later merged with) called Crusaders.

Out in the provinces, eg Exeter Saracens, tended to be named after the more high profile London clubs - in much the same way as many clubs throughout England basically play in Richmond shirts because it was iconic.

Overall it seems to be that rugby followed the cricket approach (at the very beginning, when they were heavily London centric) for the non-county sides of just giving them whimsical names rather than geographic designations (also helped before they'd settled down to a regular ground).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 12:56
The  Crusaders was a religious organisation back in the 50's but I think its origins lie in the "muscular" Christianity which contributed to the development a range of sports back in the day Dings Crusaders are probably the best  known of theses sides as the club emerged from The Dings a notorious slum area in Bristol by all accounts.

Anyway apologies for going "off piste" although Cornish Pirates is interesting because not only did the SW have its own rogue element hence the name but was also subject to raids from Barbary Pirates looking fog galley slaves amongst other things - not a lot of fun being chained to an oar 24/7.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 15:17
Originally posted by Surreyben Surreyben wrote:

As someone who has supported the stadium situation for years and years, I think the actual problem here is the fact that for, equally years and years the Stadium blog has been promising that things are "imminent" when, in actual fact they have not been. This creates a "cry wolf" scenario leading to some who simply don't believe the "imminent" announcements anymore.

I believe the stadium is closer than ever before, but unfortunately the stadium blog has created a rod for its own back.

It's a fair comment, Ben, but it's a difficult balance to strike. If no news comes out, people get twitchy and say they want to know what's going on. Then there's the problem of organisations (like the government and Sport England) who seem to take an eternity to make decisions and then deliver on them. The latest announcements are very positive and it remains to be seen if they another example of "imminent" actually meaning "dreckly"!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stadium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 15:35
Surreyben fair comment but 5206 hits since 11th July so someone must be interested in this topic. They say their is no such thing as bad publicity!Also without news this Forum dies.
The Stadiun4Cornwall Website  has been organised by a lady for 8 years and was  a very effective tool in the campaign.The Stadium project has a Worldwide audience wanting to be updated on news and progress which is difficult to come by. For this reason the website was discontinued and www.stadium4cornwall.blogspot.com started.


Edited by stadium - 18 Jul 2019 at 15:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 09:12
It is interesting how often Exeter are mentioned as the model to follow.  However, their rise had a number of circumstances that are difficult for other clubs to replicate.  The most obvious is the sale of their previous ground at a particularly lucrative time in the property market.  The related factor is that they were able to get the land at Sandy Park at a much lower price than they gained from the sale.  The fact they are a members club is, I think, a bit of a red herring.  The source of their funding has not been primarily from those members but from one wealthy individual and his associated company over a considerable period.  In a similar way Leicester are often cited as a shareholders club but conveniently overlooking the fact that two shareholders who act in concert own 51% and therefore control it.  Similarly the Wasps model of uprooting to another city and ignoring the ambitious and historic native club already there is also difficult to replicate because it was based on a specific set of circumstances surrounding the ownership of the Ricoh.  Even then the failure to meet scheduled bond
payments surely indicate that the deal wasn't as advantageous as it was stated at the time.
 
I believe that the so-called Exeter model is not one that is generally applicable and perhaps it isn't really the one CP are following.  However, I have often wondered if the 'market' for professional rugby in Cornwall is quite as large (or exploitable) as is often thought.  I agree that locating in Truro helps because, with the best will in the world, transport links within the county still aren't brilliant but we are still talking about a large area with a population of something over half a million (and with relatively high levels of deprivation).  How much of that is available for access and will it be enough to sustain a professional side at the highest level?  As a comparison the Bristol urban area (much smaller geographically and with better transport links) has a considerably larger (and relatively affluent) population and still struggled to maintain a top tier rugby side.  Yes, there is more competition both from other professional sports (although you could argue that that simply creates a larger market for spectator sport) and also competition from other professional rugby clubs who have temporarily been more successful.  But if a club with good transport links to the rest of the country, in a wealthy and densely populated area has struggled over the years what makes it possible for CP to succeed at the highest level?
 
I admire the optimism and dedication but simply having a new stadium doesn't necessarily equate with sustainable on-field success.  You only have to look at Bristol's extended sojourn in the Championship (and Leedshire for that matter) to see how even the best supported club can struggle. On the other hand, if we move to summer rugby then CP may well gain a potential market with plenty of spending power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 09:36
All fair points PT - it could still be difficult to divert support from the Chiefs ( especially given the club's success) to a new venture. Exeter has done really well since winning promotion but I would argue that despite the advantages correctly identified by you the business model put in place combined with the recruitment and retention of good quality admin,coaching and playing members is still the key.

Bristol have at last succeeded in staying up and have followed a new model based upon a couple of marquee signings combined with the recruitment of young players with talent/potential. Last season this paid off the real test comes in the coming campaign.


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