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Race for the Top 4

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PlangentThrowback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 16:56
PoT is a dead issue.  The MSC aren't.  It would be interesting to know which clubs have applied to be audited this season.  Last season it was announced sometime at the beginning of May.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 17:12
Originally posted by knightandday knightandday wrote:

I believe if you don't have PoT, an alternate must be available.

Thanks knightandday, that rings a bell now you mention it. I wonder where LW's backup was and where London Irish and Sale's (I assume) backups are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2016 at 20:14
Bedford applied with Goldington Rd when we finished 2nd to Falcons as a joke to see how many things they wanted to come up with!

I MSC are there but they are always open to be challenged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 07:54
Originally posted by knightandday knightandday wrote:

I believe if you don't have PoT, an alternate must be available.

I'm fairly sure that PoT was the main crux of our appeal four years ago, so, as Plangent Throwback says, it's no longer an issue.

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PlangentThrowback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 09:27
On the other hand, applying on time should have been an issue but the authorities chose to pick up LW on PoT which was deeply stupid if they really did want to deny promotion. 
I think that now not applying before the deadline may be more of an issue.  Having been audited before isn't the point, you have to be audited each season if you want promotion.  For example, last season we had the farcical situation in which one of the play-off sides (LS) didn't want promotion and consequently didn't even apply to be audited.  Yet another flaw in the play-off system, a side that doesn't even want to be promoted can 'win' the stupid thing.  Or scramble around past the deadline in a desperate attempt to cobble something together.  Which is even worse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 09:34
Originally posted by PlangentThrowback PlangentThrowback wrote:

  Yet another flaw in the play-off system, a side that doesn't even want to be promoted can 'win' the stupid thing.  Or scramble around past the deadline in a desperate attempt to cobble something together.  Which is even worse.


That's not a flaw in the play-off system. A club that didn't want, or couldn't be promoted could still win the league if there were no play-offs.
The flaw is in the promotion criteria.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 10:17
I totally disagree.  If there are promotion play-offs the very least you ought to hope for is that the clubs taking part actually want to be promoted.  Last season two clubs that were head and shoulders above all the rest might have lost out to one that not only finished miles behind but had no stake whatsoever in winning the stupid thing.  If, as people sometimes claim, Bristol 'bottle' the play-offs then it is even more unfair to have a team in there that has no pressure on it at all. 
The criteria required for promotion may well be flawed but that is a different issue.  Unless you include in those criteria the existence of a play-off element, in which case I would completely agree!
 
It would be a travesty if it turned out that Donny hadn't even applied to be audited and just imagine if neither Bedford or Doncaster had!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 10:54
Originally posted by PlangentThrowback PlangentThrowback wrote:

On the other hand, applying on time should have been an issue but the authorities chose to pick up LW on PoT which was deeply stupid if they really did want to deny promotion.

Agreed.  I've said many times that Premier Rugby chose to base their whole case on PoT, while completely ignoring our abject failure to comply with almost every page of the MSC document - including, but by no means limited to, lack of academy, lack of commercial and marketing structures, and, as you say, missing the deadline.  If they'd published a complete list of our failings then nobody would have had any sympathy with our plight, and there would have been absolutely no prospect of an appeal being successful.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 15:07
I think you missed my point PT. As I said, even if there were no play-offs a club that couldn't be promoted because of the ridiculous criteria could still win the league.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 15:37
No, I don't miss it at all.  It would be irritating if a side unwilling or unable to be promoted topped a league competition.  Particularly if it was just unwilling, but if it had proved itself good enough to win the league then I suppose I'd just put up with it.  But when you go through a whole league competition, win the thing and then are forced into a knock-out tournament that was specifically designed to give sides who are unable to win the league another chance at promotion then, yes, I do think all the sides in it ought actually be willing and able to take promotion.
 
Would you really think the play-offs weren't devalued if, say, half the sides in them hadn't even applied to be audited?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blueben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 16:11
I think that winning the league you are in (irrespective of the regulations as to how you do it - i.e. Playoff system) is being seriously undervalued here. Why should any team back down on that aspiration even if there is no chance of promotion at the end of it all? A league is not about promotion, but the competition over the course of a season; promotion/relegation is merely a way of balancing leagues so that the competition is closer is it not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 16:28
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

Originally posted by PlangentThrowback PlangentThrowback wrote:

  Yet another flaw in the play-off system, a side that doesn't even want to be promoted can 'win' the stupid thing.  Or scramble around past the deadline in a desperate attempt to cobble something together.  Which is even worse.


That's not a flaw in the play-off system. A club that didn't want, or couldn't be promoted could still win the league if there were no play-offs.
The flaw is in the promotion criteria.

Or maybe there's a flaw with the priorities of clubs that spend a small fortune on squads capable of achieving promotion with little or no investment in the off field improvements necessary to become a legitimate level one side.


Edited by RedOrDead - 08 Mar 2016 at 16:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Top of the Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 18:18
Originally posted by PlangentThrowback PlangentThrowback wrote:

No, I don't miss it at all.  It would be irritating if a side unwilling or unable to be promoted topped a league competition.  Particularly if it was just unwilling, but if it had proved itself good enough to win the league then I suppose I'd just put up with it.  But when you go through a whole league competition, win the thing and then are forced into a knock-out tournament that was specifically designed to give sides who are unable to win the league another chance at promotion then, yes, I do think all the sides in it ought actually be willing and able to take promotion.
 
Would you really think the play-offs weren't devalued if, say, half the sides in them hadn't even applied to be audited?
The play-off system wasn't designed for that at all. It was a way of generating extra fixtures for all teams whilst slashing the league size, so that less teams got a bigger slice of the pie without losing matchday incomes too. That's why the Championship project started with play-offs that involve all 12 teams. Of course, Bees escaping relegation through the playoffs put pay to all that and clubs preferred to slash the playoffs down to a minimum.

Plus it's supposed to generate extra "excitement" for fans and sponsors. (Ironic lol)
@RossiT: I sit atop all creation, and all that I survey is great... and Cornish!
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PlangentThrowback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 22:15
We've been told by someone who was involved in the decision that, in fact, a major reason for adopting the play-offs was to prevent one club (probably the relegated side) simply running away with the league.  If that isn't a way to give sides incapable of winning the league another chance at promotion via a knock-out competition then I don't know what is.  Yes of course the extra fixtures was a factor, but given that they've been reduced from what they originally were and we now have a cup competition that hardly anyone is interested in then that reason is pretty much out of the window.
The play offs are a stupid way to decide promotion and are utterly inconsistent with the principles of a league competition.  If you explain it to a fan of any other sport they look at you with amazement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 22:57
Not really rugby league, football (Championship and below), NFL, Baseball plus more.

It is very easy when you've got a billionaire owner who can plough millions into his little bit of fun to build a stadium etc.  The shocking thing is given all his money he's ploughed in over several years, the numerous internationals, the RFU funded academy and the thousands who turn up; Bristol haven't been able to produce a team that is good enough to have gone up.

Lets say Bristol perform the miracle and go up, next year they have a wonder season and finish 4th, then win the playoffs I'm sure you won't be celebrating as deep down you know you weren't the best team... of course not! 

If you're the clearly head and shoulders above the rest you will get promoted, if you aren't you're in the scrap.



Edited by The Blues - 08 Mar 2016 at 23:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 23:18
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Or maybe there's a flaw with the priorities of clubs that spend a small fortune on squads capable of achieving promotion with little or no investment in the off field improvements necessary to become a legitimate level one side.

You know very well that it's not as simple as that. Bedford, for example, do not spend a small fortune on their squad yet have been very close to winning the league. Why should they have to move from their perfectly adequate, spiritual home to satisfy some ludicrous criteria that not even all premiership clubs satisfy?
The Pirates have spent seven years trying to get a stadium built in Cornwall. It's impossible to bring their present ground up to the standard required, there is no suitable stadium in Cornwall, so building a new one is the only option. So it's nothing to do with spending too much on their squad.
Clubs like Nottingham have tried to make it work by moving from their historic ground to a soulless football stadium; now they've had to reset their priorities to stay afloat; ditto London Welsh.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EverOptimistic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2016 at 23:21
PT - I'd bow out gracefully at this stage.  There are very few on this forum (with some notable  exceptions, I hasten to add) who will sympathise with your view,  because you're a Bris supporter and therefore clearly unable to have an objective opinion.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2016 at 08:09
EO and PT ever since the promotion play-offs have been implemented whenever Bristol has topped the league at the end of the normal season I have cheered them on, hoping that they would win and get the promotion they richly deserve (I strongly disagree with the play-offs). This year, if Donny makes it to the finals and end up playing you I will support my team (because they are my team), however, when it is done if you have won through I will be happy for you because you will have achieved what I believe you have earned, over the years, in the championship. 

At this point in time the league is not yet finished and Donny still has an outside chance of topping the league so let us see what the last four league matches bring first. 




Edited by castleparknight - 09 Mar 2016 at 08:09
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Westcoaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2016 at 09:01
It doesn't matter who you support, I agree completely with the points made by Plangentthrowback..., particularly the point about what happens in other sports.  I too STRONGLY disagree with the playoffs.  i would much rather see a 14 or 15 team league. One up, one down as at present, and you can park your ring fencing where the sun don't shine.....
Come on Jersey........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2016 at 09:30
Thumbs Up
Originally posted by Westcoaster Westcoaster wrote:

It doesn't matter who you support, I agree completely with the points made by Plangentthrowback..., particularly the point about what happens in other sports.  I too STRONGLY disagree with the playoffs.  i would much rather see a 14 or 15 team league. One up, one down as at present, and you can park your ring fencing where the sun don't shine.....
In the interests of balance and fully respecting Westcoaster and PT's views I VERY STRONGLY support the play-off system and the B&I cup but I am REALLY STRONGLY against ring fencing. Thumbs Up
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