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Proper officiating

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Sid James View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 08:43
Originally posted by Wigwam Wigwam wrote:


Good luck to all the referees and their helpers today !!!


I could not agree more but lets extend thst good luck to the players aswell.

Yesterday, our ref and his assistants generally performed well but 'sir' made a couple of basic errors at the scrum i.e. your put in, ball is hooked, scrum solid with no one on top, ball at the No.8's feet about to be passed out and then the front rows collapse. Play on? We see this week in week out in the top 2 tiers. No problem, lets get on with it. The supporters need 'ball in play' time.
No, at tier 3 this was a full penalty against the team about to play the ball? Explanation from Ass Ref - we never allow the ball to leave a collapsed scrum. Really? I must be watching another game.
At the risk of upsetting Wigwam, I would say that here again we have an example of the laws being applied one way for the upper echelons and another way for us.

Edited by Sid James - 08 Dec 2019 at 09:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greeneyed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 09:53
Well, Big Eddie, I expect you found the ref's performance yesterday at Tynedale verging on the acceptable?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elijah Cadman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 09:54
Loving this conversation!  Some helpful and insightful comments.  Some of course, and they are clear, have little or no awareness of the investment that officials at this level and above put into their own ame and performance reviews.

I remain convinced the better officials will always make time to interact with club coaches and even occasionally some spectators (bigEd, Sid et al....)

Just to clarify a few points....
Its not referees who seek to cheat the laws, its the players.  Referees have to make a snap decision on the game impact.
Referees should always be making value judgments of what is happening around them, and whether or not he/she needs to intervene.  Sometimes its better to let things flow to speed up the game and have a word at the next opportune moment.
The better referees will travel home on their own and certainly reflect on what went well and what didnt.  Almost certainly they will make a phone call or two to others to discuss their game.
They will watch the game back, do a full review of every decision and non decision, and then with their coach (if they have one) discuss it all, often by the end of Monday night.
The reality is this year the coaches and assessors are less in number  than they have ever been, due to certain financial management decisions.  It is therefore even more important that the feedback from clubs goes to the Referees Department, so will then make decisions for fixtures based on this.

Personally i think age if not an issue, some of our best referees are young and keen.  The better ones will always appreciate a good dialogue about the game, provided that many of the spectators remember they are always going to have a 'biased eye'!  Let me give you a brief example.  I watched a young, very good referee yesterday.  He had a strong game!  Spectator next to me said the referee was having a shocker.  I said or why is that.  The response, he has no idea what he was doing!! I simply responded give me an example, he gave me three or four, I explained each decision (which I might add were actually correct) and suggested he enrol on a referee course so that he might know the games laws moving forward.

This is not the case of all spectators, but maybe just maybe gives an insight into a referees challenge?

Hope this helps.  I must confess I have always enjoyed the banter and interaction with coaches and spectators and find them informative :) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backrowb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 11:13
Originally posted by greeneyed greeneyed wrote:

Well, Big Eddie, I expect you found the ref's performance yesterday at Tynedale verging on the acceptable?
  And hopefully those big Tyndale forwards didn't try and bully those little lads from the Wirral.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 15:55
I thought the referee had a good game yeterday. Some of the chaps from Tynedale didn't understand why a penalty was given each time their scrum was going backwards a few metres. I actually agree with them. Why is it a penalty when one side gets the upperhand over the opposition in a pushing contest?

To be honest that seems somewhat crazy to me and I would b every happy if someone more knowledgeable than me could explain.

Tynedale played rugby against Caldy and in fact probably played a lot more rugby than Caldy. I applaud their endeavour, there was nothing negative about the day either on the pitch or off it. The hospitality for players and the Caldy officials was top class. 

If Tynedale had been at full strength up front it would have been ann even better contest but this was not as one sided as the score may suggest and was still a very competitive match. Tynedale had another 3 or 4 chances to score particularly in the first half, but they just didn't have enough power to get over line.

Cady had 7 chances to score and took each of them clinically.

Possession stats would probably be 60/40 to Tynedale in the first half and probably 60/40 to Caldy in the second half. The clear Man of the Match was Adam Aigbokhae. He was immense. Tyendale had some very good players as well and they stuck at it for the full 80 minutes and never stopped playing rugby. I loved my day at Tynedale and I look forward to returning often.


Edited by Big Eddie - 08 Dec 2019 at 15:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 16:22
"I remain convinced the better officials will always make time to interact with club coaches and even occasionally some spectators (bigEd, Sid et al....)"
Well said Vicar.
I admit that I am not 'old school' and I do not immediately place the referee on a pedestal as soon as he arrives at the Club. I prefer to give the ref the opportunity to earn his respect, which most do.
I always did enjoy our 'chats'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elijah Cadman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 20:10
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

"I remain convinced the better officials will always make time to interact with club coaches and even occasionally some spectators (bigEd, Sid et al....)"
Well said Vicar.
I admit that I am not 'old school' and I do not immediately place the referee on a pedestal as soon as he arrives at the Club. I prefer to give the ref the opportunity to earn his respect, which most do.
I always did enjoy our 'chats'.

O i thought from your high up position you would naturally  look down upon any performance ShockedShocked

I do think Sir/Maam should be respected as a starting point personally, afterall they are brave enough to 'have a go' with the whistle.  BUT I also agree performance needs to merit that respect also 

It was alway a pleasure to interact with the 'whosoever', occasionally i would even learn a thing or threeTongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greeneyed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 11:01
The average spectator's satisfaction with the match officials is generally in direct proportion to the number of tries his team scored, minus those conceded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wigwam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 14:48
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Wigwam Wigwam wrote:


Good luck to all the referees and their helpers today !!!


I could not agree more but lets extend thst good luck to the players aswell.

Yesterday, our ref and his assistants generally performed well but 'sir' made a couple of basic errors at the scrum i.e. your put in, ball is hooked, scrum solid with no one on top, ball at the No.8's feet about to be passed out and then the front rows collapse. Play on? We see this week in week out in the top 2 tiers. No problem, lets get on with it. The supporters need 'ball in play' time.
No, at tier 3 this was a full penalty against the team about to play the ball? Explanation from Ass Ref - we never allow the ball to leave a collapsed scrum. Really? I must be watching another game.
At the risk of upsetting Wigwam, I would say that here again we have an example of the laws being applied one way for the upper echelons and another way for us.
 
 
So pleased to hear that the Referee and Assistants at the game you attended "generally performed well" under your critical eye. 
Ever thought of volunteering as a Referees Assessor ??? It would involve a bit of training, but I'm sure a person of your calibre and understanding of the game would breeze through it.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 15:27
Originally posted by Wigwam Wigwam wrote:

Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Wigwam Wigwam wrote:


Good luck to all the referees and their helpers today !!!


I could not agree more but lets extend that good luck to the players aswell.

Yesterday, our ref and his assistants generally performed well but 'sir' made a couple of basic errors at the scrum i.e. your put in, ball is hooked, scrum solid with no one on top, ball at the No.8's feet about to be passed out and then the front rows collapse. Play on? We see this week in week out in the top 2 tiers. No problem, lets get on with it. The supporters need 'ball in play' time.
No, at tier 3 this was a full penalty against the team about to play the ball? Explanation from Ass Ref - we never allow the ball to leave a collapsed scrum. Really? I must be watching another game.
At the risk of upsetting Wigwam, I would say that here again we have an example of the laws being applied one way for the upper echelons and another way for us.
 
 
So pleased to hear that the Referee and Assistants at the game you attended "generally performed well" under your critical eye. 
Ever thought of volunteering as a Referees Assessor ??? It would involve a bit of training, but I'm sure a person of your calibre and understanding of the game would breeze through it.
 
 
Thank you.
I note that you have nothing constructive to say with regard to the incident I described. I am struggling to understand the ref's interpretation here and I thought someone as educated as yourself may be able to help.
  
I agree that it would involve a lot of training to become an Assessor but, I am sure that someone with an 'eye' that is 'observational' rather than 'critical' would prove a better candidate than someone who 'blindly' believes that 'sir' is always correct.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Puli. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 15:31
.... When the front row collapse the first thought in a refs mind is “Player safety” 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 17:22
Originally posted by Puli. Puli. wrote:

.... When the front row collapse the first thought in a refs mind is “Player safety” 


I would fully agree Puli.
However, in tiers 1 & 2 the spectators and the TV want the ball in play for as long as possible and, I believe the ref is aware of that. Hence the ball is moved away from a collapsed scrum on a regular basis.
So, from the example set by our betters, it should have been 'play on'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 17:26
Puli may be able to confirm whether the reason for retreating scrums resulting in a penalty is a safety issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 18:19
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Puli may be able to confirm whether the reason for retreating scrums resulting in a penalty is a safety issue?


I often wonder why a scrum that is pushed backwards but remains up and pushing straight is penalised, as far as I am aware there is nothing in the regs to support this.

My personal view on this is that the Ref invents something to justify rewarding the dominant scrum - but I may be wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 19:40
Usually penalised for players in the pushed back side standing up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 20:13
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Usually penalised for players in the pushed back side standing up.


Exactly, but they don't always do that either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Puli. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 11:14
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Puli may be able to confirm whether the reason for retreating scrums resulting in a penalty is a safety issue?

I would say that it varies, a lot depends on how the scrum is retreating, as the moment a player retreating goes to the ground then it becomes a “danger” situation with the possibility of injury to players collapsing on and over each other, so yes a penalty may be justified. If however the retreating scrum is still solid with no one standing up then to me there is no need for a penalty at that moment, but just a signal for playing advantage from the ref.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wigwam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 12:48
Originally posted by Puli. Puli. wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Puli may be able to confirm whether the reason for retreating scrums resulting in a penalty is a safety issue?

I would say that it varies, a lot depends on how the scrum is retreating, as the moment a player retreating goes to the ground then it becomes a “danger” situation with the possibility of injury to players collapsing on and over each other, so yes a penalty may be justified. If however the retreating scrum is still solid with no one standing up then to me there is no need for a penalty at that moment, but just a signal for playing advantage from the ref.

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Or Clive Norling
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elijah Cadman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 18:21
Originally posted by Puli. Puli. wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Puli may be able to confirm whether the reason for retreating scrums resulting in a penalty is a safety issue?

I would say that it varies, a lot depends on how the scrum is retreating, as the moment a player retreating goes to the ground then it becomes a “danger” situation with the possibility of injury to players collapsing on and over each other, so yes a penalty may be justified. If however the retreating scrum is still solid with no one standing up then to me there is no need for a penalty at that moment, but just a signal for playing advantage from the ref.

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Front rows down and ball at 8 play away (provided it appears safe)
Retreating scrum staying square normally managed and a flanker slips of bind, pen.
Retreating scrum splintering, pen
Retreating scrum 5m out at speed, PT plus YC

These are the four scenarios I would be looking for.  Is humanly possible the referee will seek to get the ball away without penalising.  BUT dominant scrums still have to be legal and if they lift the front row up in the air of his / her feet they may well get pinged for dangerous play.

But of course just because I say it doesnt make it right :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 19:29
Originally posted by Elijah Cadman Elijah Cadman wrote:

Originally posted by Puli. Puli. wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Puli may be able to confirm whether the reason for retreating scrums resulting in a penalty is a safety issue?


I would say that it varies, a lot depends on how the scrum is retreating, as the moment a player retreating goes to the ground then it becomes a “danger” situation with the possibility of injury to players collapsing on and over each other, so yes a penalty may be justified. If however the retreating scrum is still solid with no one standing up then to me there is no need for a penalty at that moment, but just a signal for playing advantage from the ref.

Elijah Cadman where are you ? 


Front rows down and ball at 8 play away (provided it appears safe)
Retreating scrum staying square normally managed and a flanker slips of bind, pen.
Retreating scrum splintering, pen
Retreating scrum 5m out at speed, PT plus YC

These are the four scenarios I would be looking for.  Is humanly possible the referee will seek to get the ball away without penalising.  BUT dominant scrums still have to be legal and if they lift the front row up in the air of his / her feet they may well get pinged for dangerous play.

But of course just because I say it doesnt make it right :) 


I would agree with all of the above apart from that if the front row goes down illegally, even when the ball is at No.8's feet, as they expect a secondary shove, then I would still be looking to penalise BUT the vast majority of referee's at Premiership downwards, will look to play away if they can, I know this because I used to do the same!
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