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Women's Prem

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Topic: Women's Prem
Posted By: Loo fighters
Subject: Women's Prem
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 17:36
RFU showing its true colours again. The reshuffle of the Tyrrell's 15 premier has seen two of the pioneering clubs in the women's game Richmond & Waterloo, jettisoned for two new shiny names that haven't played a game in anger, namely Sale Sharks & Exeter Chiefs. It stinks to high heavens, it's become a franchise in all but name, based solely on money. 

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Family-Rugger-Beer...



Replies:
Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 18:36
LF, you've hit right on the "money", two Clubs with over 50 combined years leading the development of the Women's game get shafted because the new guys? on the block have flashed the cash. SSW have committed to spending £1 Million over the next 3 years, don't think that will get them much of better squad then what 'Loo had. Quite sure on paper it looks like a great idea but when reality bites they will be shunted out of existence by SS because it will become a bit of a black hole.

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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 19:15
Where are Sale and Exeter going to get a squad of 40 players each of the calibre to compete in the Tyrells? Oh yes they will simply steal players from other clubs as they currently have no players of their own. So in the SW the likes of Hartpury, Bristol and Worcester will get weaker -Worcester have been bottom each season so far so do not understand how they can stay in the league let alone lose players. Sale will steal players from Loughborough and DMP so weakening them. Yet again the RFU flying in the face of the values they so glibly display.There is not enough money going into the women's game for it to become professional at club level so why take places away from the community clubs-very sad.


Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 20:50
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

LF, you've hit right on the "money", two Clubs with over 50 combined years leading the development of the Women's game get shafted because the new guys? on the block have flashed the cash. SSW have committed to spending £1 Million over the next 3 years, don't think that will get them much of better squad then what 'Loo had. Quite sure on paper it looks like a great idea but when reality bites they will be shunted out of existence by SS because it will become a bit of a black hole.

'have committed' or 'had committed'? You wonder to what extent business plans drawn up in the old 'BC' days may be redrawn...



Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 21:47
All the above so true. Harlequins got their women's team going by taking a large portion of the Richmond team through the Trojan horse of Aylesford Bulls.
It's a cartel ruled by money and disregard for sporting values.
Also Richmond had the impudence to bounce back into the men's Championship at the expense of Leeds, thus leaving whoever engineered the previous season's ludicrous farce with egg on their collective faces.


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pappashanga


Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 22:04
Just look at what happened to Lichfield Ladies to see the utter disregard the RFU display towards the 'older' clubs 
'Kin disgrace - not unlike the disregard for the men's sub-Prem game.


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Our City,
Our Club


Posted By: Loo fighters
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 22:09
PP is a Manchester lad n he knows the score. I thought it was Sale 1861 that was being upgraded, but no, it a brand spanking new entity. He's right on the players. There is only a certain player pool in the NW, Loo have & have had the best around. Quite a few have been taken by Rugby League. Sale will find it very difficult to entice the girls from down south, unless they're going full pro, which I don't believe they are. So as PP said it will be relatively the same team rebranded. Their is a huge difference between playing local and Prem. Loo would put 50+ points on Sale 1861 team of this season, yet Loo were regularly up against a team of english international plus others. Quin's, sarries, Wasps, Loughborough, I think 90% of England play for these 4. teams Michelle Orange might have a dream, but it's about to have its nose rubbed in the dirt. The development league has been scrapped which is the backbone of the up n coming, just madness. Waterloo ladies have been  magnanimous in their response, but I know this hurts,& as a supporter it hurts me. 

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Family-Rugger-Beer...


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 15:38
Not the first time this has happened. The current Quins team was stolen from Aylesford Bulls. Ever since they came into a "partnership", Quins chipped away at Aylesford's identity and even when Aylesford won the Women's league, they did it in Quins colours and not even playing in Aylesford. They bought their way into the top women's league at the expense of a club that worked hard and earned their spot just because the original team they had weren't that good. Exactly the same thing seems to be happening here.


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 15:45
What I don't understand is why the Women's game is replicating the structure of the Mens game which doesn't work for the vast majority of its clubs and is a financial shambles. 

I fear that that if a Premiership club is looking to balance its books at any time in the future, for any reasons, then the Womens team will be one of the first to be cut. 


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Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 16:19
Robb, I believe that Aylesford was a halfway house from Richmond to Harlequins. Aylesford must have known this, as did the players. They wouldn't have moved to Aylesford ( miles away from Richmond, and way below them in the then league) except in the knowledge they would end up at Quins.

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pappashanga


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 16:57
Richard, yes the point I was making. So if the 300K a season "investment?" in to SSW goes ahead then what do they get for their money. 30 players on 10K a season? Firstly I doubt some of the Semi-Pro's players would get that but I would guess you'll need 30 just ensure you have squad. You'll have overheads, coaching, medical, transport, kit to come out of it. Furthermore I would guess the Girls Centre of Excellence will be moving from 'Loo to Sale, that too comes with some expenses. Let say they improve on 'Loo's last place finish by one spot a season. After 3 years they will be 3rd from bottom and the wrong end of £1 Million pound investment. Lets hope KP (owners of Tyrrells) don't decide to pull their sponsorship otherwise the RFU might struggle to meet prize money payments. in short.... NUTS!

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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 17:03
Yes it's all a badly thought out farce. But what else have we come to expect? After Leeds, anything is possible.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 17:42
Has the growth in playing numbers been matched by a growth in attendances for the Women's game? Club rugby, not internationals?

What was the average attendance at say a Waterloo game? 


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Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 18:09
LF, might be best placed to answer that but on the two occasions I went to Waterloo I would guess on average 150 and most of them were family of the players. I'm told the league average is just over 300, that doesn't butter anyone's parsnips!

This is from the start of this season, think Quins have promoted it quite well, but lets face it everyone loves a winner.
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/womens-sport/2019/11/06/england-coach-simon-middleton-tells-clubs-follow-harlequins/" rel="nofollow - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/womens-sport/2019/11/06/england-coach-simon-middleton-tells-clubs-follow-harlequins/




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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: Loo fighters
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 19:47
Attendance was  varied to say the least, dependant of course on the opposition. The top four international packed teams drew a three figure crowd with free entry. Quin's v Sarries is the biggest crowd of a few thousand. Great point regarding the model mirroring the men's. For me, the NW needs more than Sale Sharks across both men's and women's game. To grow the game they could have expanded the number to 12 or even 14, keeping Loo and mond plus Lichfield and Leeds West park. The England internationals could be centrally contracted and place two at each club to even up the league making it more competitive, at the moment I think quin's have 6or more current England players, closely followed by Sarries and Loughborough. So it comes as no surprise that some games were won by a landslide of 50+ points, sometimes more.

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Family-Rugger-Beer...


Posted By: Member728
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 21:20
They came for Aylesford Bulls and I did nothing as I did not support Aylesford

Then they came for Lichfield and I did nothing as I did not support Lichfield

Then they came for Richmond by then it was too late


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83 Consecutive League Wins


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 22:32
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

Robb, I believe that Aylesford was a halfway house from Richmond to Harlequins. Aylesford must have known this, as did the players. They wouldn't have moved to Aylesford ( miles away from Richmond, and way below them in the then league) except in the knowledge they would end up at Quins.

No, Aylesford were their own club. They fought their way up through the leagues and established themselves in thhe Women's Premiership. Then Quins came in with a partnership offer with matches split between The Stoop and Aylesford. I knew the instance that news was announced that this wasn't a wealthy benefactor coming in to be generous and support women's rugby. It was a hostile takeover in plain sight because Quins' original women's team weren't that good.

And I was right. That joint agreement led to the team moving to Guildford with very few games at Aylesford. They were then told to wear Harlequins colours and only have the Aylesford Bulls logo on their sleeve (and I don't know what happened with their memorial message). It was so bad that in their final season, they were Aylesford Bulls in name only and Harlequins in everything but name. It is sickening to see a club get bought and franchised like that and to see it lose its identity and take away everything from the amateur club that made it.   


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 09:22
All correct, but a large number of the best Richmond players left the club after the 2014/15 season for Aylesford, presumably on the basis it was going to be Quins. I cannot believe they would have joined Aylesford for any other reason. No disrespect for Aylesford, but Richmond were in the top two and it must have been money and to play for Harlequins.

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pappashanga


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 10:09
💛❤️🖤 https://twitter.com/Waspsladies/status/1247972828617596930?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3ARichmondFC1861&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Frichmondfc.co.uk%2F" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/Waspsladies/status/1247972828617596930

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pappashanga


Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 13:09
On crowd numbers, DMP played a double header with the men’ playing Blackheath followed by the women playing Quinn’s. TRP crowd was 1000+ for the men’s game and surprisingly it was the same for the women’s game but in reality it was a lot less probably less than a third for the women’s game but it is hard to judge numbers in the arena

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So many Christians not enough Lions


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 16:53
Another tribute to the discarded clubs:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/04/09/premier-15s-progressing-shiny-new-era-not-forget-did-polishing/" rel="nofollow - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/04/09/premier-15s-progressing-shiny-new-era-not-forget-did-polishing/


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pappashanga


Posted By: MikeGC
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 17:46
Thanks for sharing, an interesting read


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 07:31
Indeed a good article. Seems that SS investment number has shrunk from the previously mention £1 Million over 3 years to a "six figure sum". Additionally where will SSW play? I'm guessing Heywood Road to keep the costs down especially as AJ Bell will be unavailable from February when Salford starting playing on Sunday's. If its Saturday at Heywood Road would they get primacy over Nat.1 Sale FC? 

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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 08:27
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Indeed a good article. Seems that SS investment number has shrunk from the previously mention £1 Million over 3 years to a "six figure sum". Additionally where will SSW play? I'm guessing Heywood Road to keep the costs down especially as AJ Bell will be unavailable from February when Salford starting playing on Sunday's. If its Saturday at Heywood Road would they get primacy over Nat.1 Sale FC? 
Heywood Road also hosts Swinton RLFC.  Given the poor quality of the pitch and its drainage, any increased use of it would be unwise.

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"What I need is a strong drink and a peer group"


Posted By: Loo fighters
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 11:11
Sharks have sold the vision of playing at the AJB. Sale 1861 women are continuing to exist and so will play at Heywood rd. 

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Family-Rugger-Beer...


Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 11:50
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Indeed a good article. Seems that SS investment number has shrunk from the previously mention £1 Million over 3 years to a "six figure sum". Additionally where will SSW play? I'm guessing Heywood Road to keep the costs down especially as AJ Bell will be unavailable from February when Salford starting playing on Sunday's. If its Saturday at Heywood Road would they get primacy over Nat.1 Sale FC? 

Sale 1861 are part of Sale FC, Sale Sharks Women's team are run by Sale Sharks. Why on earth would Sale Sharks women have primacy over Sale FC on a pitch they don't own?
Sale 1861 although set up as a joint venture by Sale Sharks and Sale FC two seasons ago, the team itself is run by Sale FC, the DoR is the captain of our first team and the coach is employed by Sale FC.


Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 11:57
Originally posted by Loo fighters Loo fighters wrote:

Sale 1861 women are continuing to exist and so will play at Heywood rd. 
Yep. I think there's been a lot of confusion on this subject with people assuming Sale Sharks were running Sale 1861. Sale 1861 was the vision of Sale FC and is part of a wider long term strategy to include more girls and women in rugby in our area. This includes the Trafford Girls league which was set up with schools in the area to encourage girls at school to play rugby. We approached Sale Sharks and Michelle Orange in particular who are great supporters of the team by doing some joint work.


Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 12:16
How does it work, Sale FC and Sale Sharks?. Did Sale Sharks form from Sale FC, and split into two different teams?.
Just confused as Sharks used to be at Heywood road now not, and the Sale FC teams train at Carrington, the training ground of Sharks.


Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 12:27
Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

How does it work, Sale FC and Sale Sharks?. Did Sale Sharks form from Sale FC, and split into two different teams?.
Just confused as Sharks used to be at Heywood road now not, and the Sale FC teams train at Carrington, the training ground of Sharks.

Ok just a few points
Carrington is owned by Sale FC and currently Sale Sharks rent that off us for their training facility. Our current agreement includes our being able to utilise the pitches, gym etc on a Tues/Thursday and the pitches on a Sunday for the M&J's.
Sale FC own Heywood Road and are the original club. When Rugby went pro back in the mid 90's, Sale FC got involved but became Sale Sharks with external financial ownership of the team. 
Sale FC have always been a members club, so, when Sale Sharks (the team) moved out of Heywood Road to Stockport as it was bigger and Heywood Road was too small, Sale FC Rugby started again from the bottom (historical note, an early player on that team in the lower levels of the RFU was Simon Orange who had never played rugby but is mates with Steve Smith who invited him down)
Sale Sharks and Sale FC aren't just two different teams, they're two different entities but with very close ties in terms of support and development of players. This is why you'll see the occasional Sale Sharks DR/Academy player as well as retired Sale Sharks players in the Sale FC team (Johnny Leota, Fergus Mulchrone, Dave Seymour, Neil Briggs (also a coach).


Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2020 at 11:40
Thanks clears up a lot, be interesting if we ever see Sale FC v Sale Sharks then....


Posted By: MikeGC
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 11:26
Sale Sharks have signed Katy Daly-Mclean as player/coach.
I want to say something snide about money talking but........


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 11:42
It’s a shame you can’t buy a whole team off the shelf. If Sale and Exeter manage to entice good players from other teams they will dilute the quality of the league below Quins and Saracens who will continue to share the top position.
If they can’t I’ll be them and Worcester propping up the three bottom positions. 


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pappashanga


Posted By: Loo fighters
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 12:57
KDM is mid 30s and signed as a player coach, more of a "Bait" signing. IMO it who they bring in from outside the area of international quality who haven't played at Waterloo. 

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Family-Rugger-Beer...


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 13:45
Can anyone confirm or deny that the Tyrrells Clubs have a very low Salary Cap to stick to?

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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: MikeGC
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 14:15
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Can anyone confirm or deny that the Tyrrells Clubs have a very low Salary Cap to stick to?

.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/womens-game-to-introduce-salary-cap-to-safeguard-clubs-future-rgc6wfzws" rel="nofollow - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/womens-game-to-introduce-salary-cap-to-safeguard-clubs-future-rgc6wfzws

This is behind a paywall and I don’t have access but suggests that a salary cap is being introduced.
Probably why KDM is player/coach rather than a player (for the sake of clarity, impressed with KDM and not denigrating her but her pay as a coach probably isn’t capped)


Posted By: Loo fighters
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 16:34
I may be wrong but I think it would only affect Quin's & Sarries should there be one. 

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Family-Rugger-Beer...


Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2020 at 14:03
Originally posted by Loo fighters Loo fighters wrote:

I may be wrong but I think it would only affect Quin's & Sarries should there be one. 

Sarries are never bothered by salary caps.


Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 12 May 2020 at 23:37
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Can anyone confirm or deny that the Tyrrells Clubs have a very low Salary Cap to stick to?

I beleive £60k cap from after next season onwards (not inc England contracted players england £'s) - also Exeter Uni girls are BUCS champions, most used to go to Bears afterwards but wil give Exeter a good local core

From
https://www.scrumqueens.com/news/sweeping-changes-premier-15s-way" rel="nofollow - https://www.scrumqueens.com/news/sweeping-changes-premier-15s-way
 

The introduction of a salary cap of £60,000.

The cap will be advisory next season but will be made compulsory the year after.

This change is thought to be in part to help level the playing field among the clubs and to encourage top players to spread themselves across the teams rather than congregate at one or two clubs.

Not every club is currently paying players, though a handful are, but most cover some sort of travel and accommodation costs for players who need it.

Those costs or ‘material benefits’ are set to be included in the cap though with some leeway, possibly making it difficult for the clubs who have been able to offer such perks.

There is support broadly among the clubs for the introduction of a cap, though many believe it is set at the wrong level and should be increased. 

The scrapping of development teams and the capping of squads at 40 players



Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 13 May 2020 at 06:54
So if the squads are capped at 40 and there is no development team this season where do the 17 girls not picked at a weekend for the 1st XV play?


Posted By: Loo fighters
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 07:52
Priceless from Sharks new coach...“Finding and developing talent is a big part of building a successful squad". Or you could just take the Waterloo squad.. 9 of the 11 signings so far.

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Family-Rugger-Beer...


Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 09:56
Farcical. The whole scenario is immoral and the opposite of what he's saying. Typical of modern mendacious PR.
Look at adverts for the big banks currently bombarding us on the telly - thy don't tell you 77 minutes on the phone is just how they're 'helping' us.



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pappashanga



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