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Re: Stadium For Cornwall Latest

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Topic: Re: Stadium For Cornwall Latest
Posted By: stadium
Subject: Re: Stadium For Cornwall Latest
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 08:57
Cornwall Councillor Bob Egerton reported that  the Land and Funding should be completed by the end of the month. See report on www.cornwalllive.com.



Replies:
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 12:33
That took some finding!

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/final-deals-stadium-cornwall-could-3077578 may help.


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 07:59
I've just been to Cornwall - a long way and relatively small population .

Given that Exeter has a Prem Club ( albeit with a ground that requires expansion) is it likely that prem rugby is sustainable further down the peninsular?

Just asking ...


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 08:07
Bigmal good point. On the positive side Cornwall rugby has no competition from big Football league clubs like other areas of UK. Population of Cornwall is growing to 600,000 plus millions of tourist.


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 11:29
Pirates owner Dicky Evans releases statement on Stadium Project on Cornish Pirates website www.cornish-pirates.com/news and www.stadium4cornwall.blogspot.com


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 15:22
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

I've just been to Cornwall - a long way and relatively small population .

Given that Exeter has a Prem Club ( albeit with a ground that requires expansion) is it likely that prem rugby is sustainable further down the peninsular?

Just asking ...

Without a doubt - if we had a premiership team in Cornwall the following would be massive. Pirates v Gloms, Bath, Exeter or Bristol would fill up the new stadium.


Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 16:50
Originally posted by stadium stadium wrote:

Pirates owner Dicky Evans releases statement on Stadium Project on Cornish Pirates website www.cornish-pirates.com/news and www.stadium4cornwall.blogspot.com



https://cornish-pirates.com/news 404 page not found.

http://stadium4cornwall.blogspot.com/ - has the report...

Land not yet transferred, but it’s close.
Funding not yet..., but it’s close
Once funding received, we need more funding from shareholders and supporters to build phase , so it’s close to starting this fundraising.
Planning phase 2 (to provide long-term sustainability), not so close.

Given the Press piece three days ago there’s clearly a PR campaign going on to persuade someone that it’s getting close, but it’s not clear who. Is it trying to jog the government into committing their share?


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 17:22
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by stadium stadium wrote:

Pirates owner Dicky Evans releases statement on Stadium Project on Cornish Pirates website www.cornish-pirates.com/news and www.stadium4cornwall.blogspot.com



https://cornish-pirates.com/news 404 page not found.

http://stadium4cornwall.blogspot.com/ - has the report...

Land not yet transferred, but it’s close.
Funding not yet..., but it’s close
Once funding received, we need more funding from shareholders and supporters to build phase , so it’s close to starting this fundraising.
Planning phase 2 (to provide long-term sustainability), not so close.

Given the Press piece three days ago there’s clearly a PR campaign going on to persuade someone that it’s getting close, but it’s not clear who. Is it trying to jog the government into committing their share?

The article states that the transfer of the land is the key to the release of the promised government money. The council themselves have said this transfer is imminent - probably before the end of the month. When that is in place the build can start. Your sarcastic summation of the situation is typical of the negativity that has held this project up for so long.


Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 17:44
Failure to complete on the land transfer, not my comments, is what is delaying the project.

Publicising this failure to complete, is what is pointing out this failure, and raising more doubts every time it is done.


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 19:53
OldNick
Do you have a problem getting up in the morning? Interesting to know your location other than broad United Kingdom.Like our local Naysayers you will be disappointed when the project construction starts this year.


Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 19:59
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Failure to complete on the land transfer, not my comments, is what is delaying the project.

Publicising this failure to complete, is what is pointing out this failure, and raising more doubts every time it is done.
 

Old Nick who do you support 


Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 20:07
He supports Coventry I believe

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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!


Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 20:14
Originally posted by castleparknight castleparknight wrote:

He supports Coventry I believe
 

Ah that explains things thank you


Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 20:57
Originally posted by stadium stadium wrote:

OldNick
Do you have a problem getting up in the morning? Interesting to know your location other than broad United Kingdom.Like our local Naysayers you will be disappointed when the project construction starts this year.

I have no difficulty getting up in the morning.

I shall be delighted when you have a decent stadium down in Cornwall, even though I shall miss watching matches in Penzance. I’ve visited when CP have played away before, and it has not been the same.

The trouble is that the ‘announcements’ that are being made are all vapourware. Smoke and mirrors, increasingly desperate. They are doing more harm than good, because they are all promises.
None of them actually show progress. They show vague unspecified ‘jam tomorrow’ hopes of progress.

I live in a city where the local football club has been promising a new stadium for years. Every year it doesn’t happen, the less people trust that it ever will happen.

Stadium for Cornwall is, in my opinion, getting to that stage.
Politically, every day that government money is not confirmed, the less likely it is to survive Brexit, to serve the change of PM, to survive potential changes in government. Which politician will support a scheme to provide a stadium for what is seen nationally as an elitist, minority sport, in a distant county, with one of the smallest populations in the country?

That is why I am worried that you will never get your ground, worried that your inept communication is getting desperate, and believe that the people behind it are also looking increasingly worried that it will never happen.

You asked. That’s how it looks.


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 21:24
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by stadium stadium wrote:

OldNick
Do you have a problem getting up in the morning? Interesting to know your location other than broad United Kingdom.Like our local Naysayers you will be disappointed when the project construction starts this year.

I have no difficulty getting up in the morning.

I shall be delighted when you have a decent stadium down in Cornwall, even though I shall miss watching matches in Penzance. I’ve visited when CP have played away before, and it has not been the same.

The trouble is that the ‘announcements’ that are being made are all vapourware. Smoke and mirrors, increasingly desperate. They are doing more harm than good, because they are all promises.
None of them actually show progress. They show vague unspecified ‘jam tomorrow’ hopes of progress.

I live in a city where the local football club has been promising a new stadium for years. Every year it doesn’t happen, the less people trust that it ever will happen.

Stadium for Cornwall is, in my opinion, getting to that stage.
Politically, every day that government money is not confirmed, the less likely it is to survive Brexit, to serve the change of PM, to survive potential changes in government. Which politician will support a scheme to provide a stadium for what is seen nationally as an elitist, minority sport, in a distant county, with one of the smallest populations in the country?

That is why I am worried that you will never get your ground, worried that your inept communication is getting desperate, and believe that the people behind it are also looking increasingly worried that it will never happen.

You asked. That’s how it looks.

Your interpretation of the statement is way off the mark. Completion of the land transfer is imminent, and that will release the government funds. Your impression from hundreds of miles away that "the people behind it are also looking worried that it will never happen" could not be further from the truth. 



Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 08:01
As an impartial observer I think it is right to be cautious - you just have to look at the TWO new stadiums promised in Bristol for the footy teams which came to naught. Using Bristol as an example though the redevelopment of Ashton Gate has benefitted not only a range of sports but the local economy.

15 home games a season with a gate of 10000 paying £30 equates to £4.5 m with sponsorship/tv etc lets say £7m maximum. Is that sufficient to sort out the stadium long term AND sustain a Prem club? I'm happy to see the outline figures used in the business plan. Does this involve taxpayers money as well?

I'm not being negative merely realistic.


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 11:18
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

As an impartial observer I think it is right to be cautious - you just have to look at the TWO new stadiums promised in Bristol for the footy teams which came to naught. Using Bristol as an example though the redevelopment of Ashton Gate has benefitted not only a range of sports but the local economy.

15 home games a season with a gate of 10000 paying £30 equates to £4.5 m with sponsorship/tv etc lets say £7m maximum. Is that sufficient to sort out the stadium long term AND sustain a Prem club? I'm happy to see the outline figures used in the business plan. Does this involve taxpayers money as well?

I'm not being negative merely realistic.

The rugby is only one facet of the stadium business plan. Truro College are basing their catering and hospitality department there - so the site will be in use constantly by them. There is also a planned conference centre plus many other users.


Posted By: Cannon
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 11:41
I thought Truro FC were talking about using it too? 

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Rucks and mauls may bust my balls, but whips and chains excite me!!


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 11:43
The complex will also have a Gym and Dance studio. Planning also passed for Luxury Hotel on site. The Pirates owner is a very successful International business man i  have no doubt that he will also be successful in this venture as well.


Posted By: elmsall man
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 11:45
Stalwart
Let it all wash over you.
Your faith and tenacity should be rewarded and I am sure that it will be.
If when Doncaster play the Pirates before the Pirates  are promoted we will continue to stay in Penzance but could we travel on any supporters coaches going from Penzance to Truro .It would be a fun trip!!


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 11:49
Cannon your correct that Truro FC will play at the Stadium. Pirates owner Dicky Evans took over the club in June.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 12:10
So that is another 21 leauge games and whatever cup fixtures they have  - but what gate do they attract?
How much investment would they need to move up from Southern league even to league 2?


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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Dotcom
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 12:11
Originally posted by elmsall man elmsall man wrote:

If when Doncaster play the Pirates before the Pirates  are promoted we will continue to stay in Penzance but could we travel on any supporters coaches going from Penzance to Truro .It would be a fun trip!!

The new December Train Timetable should see trains PZ- Plymouth  every half hour - almost a turn up & go service and all stop Truro


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 13:31
Originally posted by elmsall man elmsall man wrote:

Stalwart
Let it all wash over you.
Your faith and tenacity should be rewarded and I am sure that it will be.
If when Doncaster play the Pirates before the Pirates  are promoted we will continue to stay in Penzance but could we travel on any supporters coaches going from Penzance to Truro .It would be a fun trip!!

Thanks - we've been fighting negativity and ill-informed naysayers for many years, so I'll always fight our corner. 
On travel to Truro from PZ, hopefully transport will be laid on for those of us in the PZ area. As Dotcom says, rail travel would be pretty convenient, and there is a park and ride adjacent to the stadium site.


Posted By: Hoffee
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 15:52
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

Originally posted by elmsall man elmsall man wrote:

Stalwart
Let it all wash over you.
Your faith and tenacity should be rewarded and I am sure that it will be.
If when Doncaster play the Pirates before the Pirates  are promoted we will continue to stay in Penzance but could we travel on any supporters coaches going from Penzance to Truro .It would be a fun trip!!

Thanks - we've been fighting negativity and ill-informed naysayers for many years, so I'll always fight our corner. 
On travel to Truro from PZ, hopefully transport will be laid on for those of us in the PZ area. As Dotcom says, rail travel would be pretty convenient, and there is a park and ride adjacent to the stadium site.

No doubt there will be an ever-reliable First bus service from Truro train station to the new Langarth town. I would imagine this would make traveling from PZ relatively straight forward. That being said I would imagine there will be a new bus directly from PZ to Langarth, assuming they don't simply extend the existing Tinner services to cover it.


Posted By: Tricolour
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 16:24
OldNick is a pain in the backside, I had a run in with him on a different rugby forum after he slated the officials for his team losing. Come to think of it he's quite a negative person, must be an age thing.


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 17:02
I've never had a problem with him, personally.
Kimbo, on the other hand...


Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 18:03
OldNick is a true Rugby fan and can be very critical. He has slated Ealing Trailfinders facilities in the past and going way back our quagmire of a grass pitch before 3G.

Our WC,s or lack of them,how long it took to get a beer and the extortionate cost of food!. He was right on all accounts.

I was at a pre match celebratory meal at Cornish Pirates where the room was buzzing with excitement about the start of construction at the new ground.I bought raffle tickets for the honour of the 'breaking of ground' This was in May 2018 and here we are !.

I look forward to visiting the new ground but I agree with OldNick that there have been too many false starts.

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Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.


Posted By: Paul Rossborough
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 19:27
Originally posted by JonDee JonDee wrote:

Originally posted by castleparknight castleparknight wrote:

He supports Coventry I believe
 

Ah that explains things thank you


what does this mean?

OldNick says what he sees... nowt wrong with that!

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All views expressed are my own


Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 20:14
Be nice to each other.

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Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC


Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 21:42
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Be nice to each other.


Tell that to that Welsh bloke.
Ooh he's got a proper sharp tongue that one.

Never did like leeks.

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Our City,
Our Club


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 08:14
In Cornwall  the Eden Project, Hall4Cornwall and Falmouth Univercity all were "Dreckly" projects. They are now all multi million pound sustainable successful ventures. That is why i am confident the Stadium4Cornwall wil be the same and confirmed before the end of this month. 


Posted By: Whistle watcher
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 10:12
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Be nice to each other.


Tell that to that Welsh bloke.
.

Err - which one??


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 12:16
Me.


Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 12:44
Me, me, me. Typical.

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Our City,
Our Club


Posted By: Taffy
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 14:10
Originally posted by Whistle watcher Whistle watcher wrote:

Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Be nice to each other.


Tell that to that Welsh bloke.
.

Err - which one??


Phew! I thought it was me!


Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 21:15
Originally posted by stadium stadium wrote:

Cannon your correct that Truro FC will play at the Stadium. Pirates owner Dicky Evans took over the club in June.


My understanding was that Truro were selling their ground for a supermarket new build and going to contribute some of the proceeds to the Stadium for Cornwall , their new shared ground.

Did Dicky Evans buy the Truro ground to sell on to raise money for the S4C project . As the sale of Truro Football ground happened ?. 

When I tried to add up the various sources of funding previously from information gleaned from the Blog it was......

I asked the question about funding and the blog shows this detail

Truro and Penwith College          £2.m
Cornish Pirates                           £2.m
Truro City FC                              £2.m
Private sector borrowing             £2.m
Greenwich Leisure Ltd (GLL).      £0.3m
Total                                          £8.3m

This leaves a funding gap of £6m. 

This will be made up by £3 Million from Cornwall council and the Government the other £3 Million.


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Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 23:54
No 7
You get 3/10 try harder do your homework. I wont bother to waste my time giving you the correct figures. Why does a Ealing supporter have such a "Hang Up" about the Pirates?


Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 00:08
Apoligises if the sums are wrong but they came from the blog you directed me to some time ago. I have no hang up about Pirates but as I said I was at the end of season celebratory meal and have visited Cornish pirates several times.

You may remember you questioned Ealing Trailfinders business model/ sustainability and had the whole structure completely wrong. I am asking you what the figures are and where the money is coming from. I find the Blog  very misleading.


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Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 04:43
We have both had our say. I think it is appropriate now to wait for the decision before i make any further comments.


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 09:41
Truth is that both Pirates and Ealing couldn't function without a massive financial input from their benefactors. That's the reality of The Championship at the moment. The plan is for The Pirates to become financially sustainable without that in the future, at the new stadium, basing it on the way Chiefs have managed things in Exeter. Good luck to Ealing. They seem to have the most realistic chance of upsetting Newcastle in the coming season. In my opinion the main difference between Pirates and Ealing is that here in Cornwall there is no competition - we are the only pro club and Truro City football are a long way off league status and don't have a massive following. At present a lot of people travel to Plymouth for football and Exeter for rugby, so we'd hope to attract at least some of them to the new stadium as we try to build a Premiership ready squad. 
 As others have mentioned, Ealing have a lot of competition from other rugby clubs and football teams, so they have a more difficult job to attract large numbers of supporters. I'd love to see Ealing break into the Premiership cartel, as long as it's kept open to give the rest of us a chance in years to come.


Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 10:50
I honestly believe that the move to Truro is going to be the best thing for the Pirates, and I totally agree with Stalwart in the fact that there is no competition down there for Pro Sport so they should start to get decent crowds (more money) Rugby Union is a popular sport in the South West, so I think the crowds will come. With that follows advertising (more money) and potentially the opportunity to break into the Premiership (more money) - the Exeter model. Good luck Pirates hope to see you, playing us, in the Prem one day although your chances are, in my opinion, more likely than ours in the next 5 to 10 years.




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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 11:00
A lot of good points being made and I admire the positive views expressed by those supporting this scheme BUT do the figures add up ?

It appears obvious to me that Exeter rely on support from Devon , Somerset and Cornwall and by all accounts have a sustainable model based on decent crowds, clever player recruitment/retention and sensible sponsorship. Pirates will be reliant upon support from Cornwall and you only have to look at Bristol to see how difficult building a squad can be even with a very committed sponsor and excellent gates.

Realistically Pirates need to look at Sale and Newcastle who have survived in recent seasons on modest crowds and effective player recruitment/retention. It was a shame to see Newcastle go down but TBH it was arguably more difficult for Dean R to attract players to the NE than for Steve D to get them to come to Manchester.

A multi use stadium with associated leisure/hospitality facilities makes sense but has to be exploited ruthlessly to remain viable. The cost of a reasonably competitive Prem squad is huge and needs to be carefully considered.

I have no doubt all will be revealed in due course but constructing both the facilities and the squad will take at least 5 years IMHO and even then there is no guarantee of Prem rugby.


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 11:21
Agree with a lot of the points made by castleparknight (thanks for the support) and Bigmal. I think you my be underestimating the passion for rugby in Cornwall, Bigmal. A prem team would attract massive crowds, especially for the derbies against the likes of Exeter, Glos and Bris. We also get a lot of away supporters who love to come to Cornwall for a long weekend, or even a week, to take in the rugby. We still get supporters from Saints and Quins turning up at Pirates!


Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 22:01
Quote :Stalwart:

In my opinion the main difference between Pirates and Ealing is that here in Cornwall there is no competition - we are the only pro club and Truro City football are a long way off league status and don't have a massive following. At present a lot of people travel to Plymouth for football and Exeter for rugby, so we'd hope to attract at least some of them to the new stadium as we try to build a Premiership ready squad. 

There are obviously many differences and similarities between the two clubs. They both have very wealthy benefactors who love Rugby .

The main difference in my opinion is that Ealing Trailfinders `owner` already owns the sports ground and runs a very successful income generating business from the site. Mike Gooley has transformed the site over twenty years.

He has already has a team / squad that are very close to being competitive at a higher level. Unfortunately I believe for all aspiring Rugby clubs the drawbridge is about to be raised and kept closed for ever more. 

In Ealings folklore history it said that they were invited to a meeting in a pub where the RFU was originally formed . It is said that the Ealing representative went to the wrong pub ! 

Ealing Trailfinders and others may have to look elsewhere for competitive Rugby outside of the RFU CVC , Premiership Rugby.

Premiership Rugby is owned by wealthy businessmen `benefactors`

FROM TRP

BRISTOL BEARS owner Steve Lansdown has retained his place as the richest owner in the Premiership.

Lansdown and his wife, Catherine, own the  https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/?s=bristol+bears" rel="nofollow - Bears  via their company, Pula Sport Limited. He is the 83rd richest person in the country with £1.72bn.

That makes him worth five times more than Saracens’ boss Nigel Wray, right.

Finance king Lansdowne is clearly the wealthiest owner of a rugby club in this country.

Wray who made his £315m fortune through property and food is the majority shareholder in Sarries’ owners Premier Team Holdings.

Bath’s Bruce Craig, with £289m comes in third and is 448th in the latest UK rich list.

Sale Sharks’ Simon Orange is believed to be worth £25m, Gloucester’s Martin St Quinton £20.2m, Harlequins Duncan Saville £20m and Wasps Derek Richardson £67m.

Interestingly Premiership runners-up  https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - Exeter , the only club to operate at a profit, are owned by their 700 members with four shareholders acting as trustees.

And it is the same for East Midland rivals Leicester Tigers and Northampton Saints with nobody having an overall controlling shareholding.


Ironically Dicky Evans the Cornish Pirates wealthy benefactor is wealthier than all of the above if you believe what is on the internet !. Mike Gooley is a mere 80 Million or so but they both could literally buy a premiership club ( Leicester Tigers comes to mind ).



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Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.


Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 23:11
No 7 -indeed it is alleged that Ealing and Wasps were invited to the inaugural meeting to found the RFU at the Pall Mall restaurant 9-10 Haymarket London on 26th January 1871 but both went to wrong locations and on the wrong date.


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 07:54
All interesting stuff and Exeter emerge as the "go to" role model. Is it just that the other teams pay so much more to the players?

Support from.financial backers is a dangerous road especislly without significant tv revenue.

Ill be watching Pirates activities with intetest BUT would point out that you are talking a 6-7 hour riund trip evennfrom Bristol and the train tends to be pricey.


Posted By: Dave G/w
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 10:24
Stalwart, agree with what you say on some things, but people travel to Plymouth for the rugby as well. Only been 4 seasons out of the championship, and we’re in in for many years. Hope the club gets back up there one day, as there still is a massive fan base, and still get larger crowds than a few teams in the championship.


Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 10:34
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Quote :Stalwart:

In my opinion the main difference between Pirates and Ealing is that here in Cornwall there is no competition - we are the only pro club and Truro City football are a long way off league status and don't have a massive following. At present a lot of people travel to Plymouth for football and Exeter for rugby, so we'd hope to attract at least some of them to the new stadium as we try to build a Premiership ready squad. 

There are obviously many differences and similarities between the two clubs. They both have very wealthy benefactors who love Rugby .

The main difference in my opinion is that Ealing Trailfinders `owner` already owns the sports ground and runs a very successful income generating business from the site. Mike Gooley has transformed the site over twenty years.

He has already has a team / squad that are very close to being competitive at a higher level. Unfortunately I believe for all aspiring Rugby clubs the drawbridge is about to be raised and kept closed for ever more. 

In Ealings folklore history it said that they were invited to a meeting in a pub where the RFU was originally formed . It is said that the Ealing representative went to the wrong pub ! 

Ealing Trailfinders and others may have to look elsewhere for competitive Rugby outside of the RFU CVC , Premiership Rugby.

Premiership Rugby is owned by wealthy businessmen `benefactors`

FROM TRP

BRISTOL BEARS owner Steve Lansdown has retained his place as the richest owner in the Premiership.

Lansdown and his wife, Catherine, own the  https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/?s=bristol+bears" rel="nofollow - Bears  via their company, Pula Sport Limited. He is the 83rd richest person in the country with £1.72bn.

That makes him worth five times more than Saracens’ boss Nigel Wray, right.

Finance king Lansdowne is clearly the wealthiest owner of a rugby club in this country.

Wray who made his £315m fortune through property and food is the majority shareholder in Sarries’ owners Premier Team Holdings.

Bath’s Bruce Craig, with £289m comes in third and is 448th in the latest UK rich list.

Sale Sharks’ Simon Orange is believed to be worth £25m, Gloucester’s Martin St Quinton £20.2m, Harlequins Duncan Saville £20m and Wasps Derek Richardson £67m.

Interestingly Premiership runners-up  https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - Exeter , the only club to operate at a profit, are owned by their 700 members with four shareholders acting as trustees.

And it is the same for East Midland rivals Leicester Tigers and Northampton Saints with nobody having an overall controlling shareholding.


Ironically Dicky Evans the Cornish Pirates wealthy benefactor is wealthier than all of the above if you believe what is on the internet !. Mike Gooley is a mere 80 Million or so but they both could literally buy a premiership club ( Leicester Tigers comes to mind ).

 
Mike Gooley's annual "state of the nation" was released today for Ealing. I was very heartened to see that Trailfinders Sports Club Ltd. managed to break even last year on the back of increased (but disappointing) gates, facilities hire, and most importantly, London Broncos revenue.


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 10:36
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:


In Ealings folklore history it said that they were invited to a meeting in a pub where the RFU was originally formed . It is said that the Ealing representative went to the wrong pub ! 


 

Folklore's a funny thing - I've seen that story reported/written many times, including in the seminal "A Game for Hooligans" I think, but always as the rep from Wasps...

Wasps official history mentions it - https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/rugby-book-of-the-year-92047

as does their website. 


rugbyfootballhistory.com:

The 21 clubs that attended the first meeting chaired by the club captain of the Richmond Club, one E. C. Holmes, included Harlequins, Blackheath, Guy's Hospital, Civil Service, Wellington College, King's College and St. Paul's School which are still playing today. Other clubs now defunct, or playing under other names, were the picturesquely named Gipsies, Flamingoes, Mohicans, Wimbledon Hornets, Marlborough nomads, West Kent , Law, Lausanne, Addison, Belsize park, Ravenscourt park, Chapham rovers and a Greenwich club called Queen's House. Many famous provincial clubs, founded before 1871, were not founder members of the Rugby Football Union, though, of course, they became members later; among these were Bath, Bradford, Liverpool and Brighton.

Note: Belsize Park were disbanded in 1880 and many players joined Harlequins. A new Belsize club was founded in 1971.

One famous name that was missing, though, was the London club Wasps. Somehow they managed to send their representative to the wrong venue at the wrong time on the wrong day but another version of the story was that he went to a pub of the same name and after consuming a number of drinks was too Huckleberryly Pear to make it to the correct address after he realized his mistake.




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keep the faith


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 10:47
Bradford of course were members of the Northern Union and then the Rugby League before defecting to the Football Association.


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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 11:43
Spot on - its an interesting topic the development of the game especially as most of the clubs who formed the Northern Union are still playing whether Union,League or indeed Association football. 

Any idea why names such as Saracens or Hornets were so popular back in the 19th C ? They appear down here in the SW as well and indeed up North ( Rochdale Hornets is the one I remember). Mohicans must have influenced Joe Marler!


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 12:03
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Spot on - its an interesting topic the development of the game especially as most of the clubs who formed the Northern Union are still playing whether Union,League or indeed Association football. 

Any idea why names such as Saracens or Hornets were so popular back in the 19th C ? They appear down here in the SW as well and indeed up North ( Rochdale Hornets is the one I remember). Mohicans must have influenced Joe Marler!
 

Gypsies was common for wandering/touring sides - comes from cricket, where of course I Zingari are still very much a thing.

Wasps/hornets was down to the colours of the shirts rather than the other way round (colours following name) AIUI. 

Sarries, depending on who you believe, were either because they wanted to be like the Saracens, or because they'd already got local rivals (who they later merged with) called Crusaders.

Out in the provinces, eg Exeter Saracens, tended to be named after the more high profile London clubs - in much the same way as many clubs throughout England basically play in Richmond shirts because it was iconic.

Overall it seems to be that rugby followed the cricket approach (at the very beginning, when they were heavily London centric) for the non-county sides of just giving them whimsical names rather than geographic designations (also helped before they'd settled down to a regular ground).


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keep the faith


Posted By: Surreyben
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 12:13
As someone who has supported the stadium situation for years and years, I think the actual problem here is the fact that for, equally years and years the Stadium blog has been promising that things are "imminent" when, in actual fact they have not been. This creates a "cry wolf" scenario leading to some who simply don't believe the "imminent" announcements anymore.

I believe the stadium is closer than ever before, but unfortunately the stadium blog has created a rod for its own back.


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 12:49
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Spot on - its an interesting topic the development of the game especially as most of the clubs who formed the Northern Union are still playing whether Union,League or indeed Association football. 

Any idea why names such as Saracens or Hornets were so popular back in the 19th C ? They appear down here in the SW as well and indeed up North ( Rochdale Hornets is the one I remember). Mohicans must have influenced Joe Marler!
 

Gypsies was common for wandering/touring sides - comes from cricket, where of course I Zingari are still very much a thing.

Wasps/hornets was down to the colours of the shirts rather than the other way round (colours following name) AIUI. 

Sarries, depending on who you believe, were either because they wanted to be like the Saracens, or because they'd already got local rivals (who they later merged with) called Crusaders.

Out in the provinces, eg Exeter Saracens, tended to be named after the more high profile London clubs - in much the same way as many clubs throughout England basically play in Richmond shirts because it was iconic.

Overall it seems to be that rugby followed the cricket approach (at the very beginning, when they were heavily London centric) for the non-county sides of just giving them whimsical names rather than geographic designations (also helped before they'd settled down to a regular ground).


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 12:56
The  Crusaders was a religious organisation back in the 50's but I think its origins lie in the "muscular" Christianity which contributed to the development a range of sports back in the day Dings Crusaders are probably the best  known of theses sides as the club emerged from The Dings a notorious slum area in Bristol by all accounts.

Anyway apologies for going "off piste" although Cornish Pirates is interesting because not only did the SW have its own rogue element hence the name but was also subject to raids from Barbary Pirates looking fog galley slaves amongst other things - not a lot of fun being chained to an oar 24/7.


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 15:17
Originally posted by Surreyben Surreyben wrote:

As someone who has supported the stadium situation for years and years, I think the actual problem here is the fact that for, equally years and years the Stadium blog has been promising that things are "imminent" when, in actual fact they have not been. This creates a "cry wolf" scenario leading to some who simply don't believe the "imminent" announcements anymore.

I believe the stadium is closer than ever before, but unfortunately the stadium blog has created a rod for its own back.

It's a fair comment, Ben, but it's a difficult balance to strike. If no news comes out, people get twitchy and say they want to know what's going on. Then there's the problem of organisations (like the government and Sport England) who seem to take an eternity to make decisions and then deliver on them. The latest announcements are very positive and it remains to be seen if they another example of "imminent" actually meaning "dreckly"!


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 15:35
Surreyben fair comment but 5206 hits since 11th July so someone must be interested in this topic. They say their is no such thing as bad publicity!Also without news this Forum dies.
The Stadiun4Cornwall Website  has been organised by a lady for 8 years and was  a very effective tool in the campaign.The Stadium project has a Worldwide audience wanting to be updated on news and progress which is difficult to come by. For this reason the website was discontinued and www.stadium4cornwall.blogspot.com started.


Posted By: PlangentThrowback
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 09:12
It is interesting how often Exeter are mentioned as the model to follow.  However, their rise had a number of circumstances that are difficult for other clubs to replicate.  The most obvious is the sale of their previous ground at a particularly lucrative time in the property market.  The related factor is that they were able to get the land at Sandy Park at a much lower price than they gained from the sale.  The fact they are a members club is, I think, a bit of a red herring.  The source of their funding has not been primarily from those members but from one wealthy individual and his associated company over a considerable period.  In a similar way Leicester are often cited as a shareholders club but conveniently overlooking the fact that two shareholders who act in concert own 51% and therefore control it.  Similarly the Wasps model of uprooting to another city and ignoring the ambitious and historic native club already there is also difficult to replicate because it was based on a specific set of circumstances surrounding the ownership of the Ricoh.  Even then the failure to meet scheduled bond
payments surely indicate that the deal wasn't as advantageous as it was stated at the time.
 
I believe that the so-called Exeter model is not one that is generally applicable and perhaps it isn't really the one CP are following.  However, I have often wondered if the 'market' for professional rugby in Cornwall is quite as large (or exploitable) as is often thought.  I agree that locating in Truro helps because, with the best will in the world, transport links within the county still aren't brilliant but we are still talking about a large area with a population of something over half a million (and with relatively high levels of deprivation).  How much of that is available for access and will it be enough to sustain a professional side at the highest level?  As a comparison the Bristol urban area (much smaller geographically and with better transport links) has a considerably larger (and relatively affluent) population and still struggled to maintain a top tier rugby side.  Yes, there is more competition both from other professional sports (although you could argue that that simply creates a larger market for spectator sport) and also competition from other professional rugby clubs who have temporarily been more successful.  But if a club with good transport links to the rest of the country, in a wealthy and densely populated area has struggled over the years what makes it possible for CP to succeed at the highest level?
 
I admire the optimism and dedication but simply having a new stadium doesn't necessarily equate with sustainable on-field success.  You only have to look at Bristol's extended sojourn in the Championship (and Leedshire for that matter) to see how even the best supported club can struggle. On the other hand, if we move to summer rugby then CP may well gain a potential market with plenty of spending power.


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 09:36
All fair points PT - it could still be difficult to divert support from the Chiefs ( especially given the club's success) to a new venture. Exeter has done really well since winning promotion but I would argue that despite the advantages correctly identified by you the business model put in place combined with the recruitment and retention of good quality admin,coaching and playing members is still the key.

Bristol have at last succeeded in staying up and have followed a new model based upon a couple of marquee signings combined with the recruitment of young players with talent/potential. Last season this paid off the real test comes in the coming campaign.




Posted By: PlangentThrowback
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 10:16
You're quite right about the current business model in which the stadium is a major source of income on non-match days. Of course, my argument is that they wouldn't have had the stadium without the capital obtained from a unique source. I also see that SW Comms have just renewed their sponsorship for the 25th year. How many clubs have had level of support and would they have had so much for so long without the connection between the two organisations? I hadn't realised before just how much infrastructure SW Comms provide to Exeter and I suspect that isn't on normal commercial terms. So, as I say Exeter is a tough model for others to follow.

As for Bristol, clearly the play-offs were hugely detrimental but as you say the current playing model worked last season (though if you saw the performance at Worcester you might not be so certain of that). Bristol were also helped by Leicester's fall and the reversion to type from Newcastle. Clearly on-field success feeds into a sustainable business model but one season of relative success doesn't mean things are secured for the medium of long term.


Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 10:54
I'd like to "buy a brick" or something similar to support the project is there an initiative of that kind ongoing? 

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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.


Posted By: knightandday
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 11:09
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

I'd like to "buy a brick" or something similar to support the project is there an initiative of that kind ongoing? 


I have several bricks for sale. You’ll have to pay the postage though.

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Winning isn't everything, it just makes the beer taste better


Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 11:12
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

I'd like to "buy a brick" or something similar to support the project is there an initiative of that kind ongoing? 
 
Ditto - I signed up online with Pirates to do so about a year ago, but I'm not finding the link via google at the moment.


Posted By: Dotcom
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 12:03
You can sign up on-line for notifications & updates for when the Crowdfunder is launched:

https://mailchi.mp/cornish-pirates/crowdfund" rel="nofollow - https://mailchi.mp/cornish-pirates/crowdfund


Posted By: Albert Fishwick
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 13:03
Originally posted by PlangentThrowback PlangentThrowback wrote:

? I hadn't realised before just how much infrastructure SW Comms provide to Exeter and I suspect that isn't on normal commercial terms.


Let's hope that isn't the case; HMRC take a dim view of any such arrangements these days.

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That's easy for you to say.


Posted By: The Joy of (Level) 7
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 13:24
Originally posted by Albert Fishwick Albert Fishwick wrote:

Originally posted by PlangentThrowback PlangentThrowback wrote:

? I hadn't realised before just how much infrastructure SW Comms provide to Exeter and I suspect that isn't on normal commercial terms.


Let's hope that isn't the case; HMRC take a dim view of any such arrangements these days.


I think both parties receive adequate professional advice and act accordingly.

In any regard, I suspect HMRC would have no idea how much a “sponsorship package” was worth to the sponsor.

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TJOS


Posted By: PlangentThrowback
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 16:59
Actually HMRC did catch them out on a relatively small amount of sponsorship money.  I'm not sure that supplying IT and media services come under the same regime but, at the very least, I bet Exeter gets a very good deal from the main sponsor.  Which is just one reason why I think Exeter are a difficult template for success.


Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 08:16
I don’t know about the ‘Exeter model’ or the ‘Leicester model’ et al, all that I know is that the Cornish are nuts for their rugby (or just nuts in general).
I will never forget coming back from a long weekend with a load of mates from Newquay and changing at Par to get the 125 back to London, only to find the whole train literally rammed with Cornish rugby fans on their way to Twickenham for the county championship final. That was only 1 train of many and there were thousands and thousands of them. Now, I know that this was in about 1990, but that sort of passion just does not die out.
IMHO the S4C will be a huge success and good luck to them. Can’t wait to see it.


Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 08:44
Thank you Brizzer for the positive support. You will always be very welcome to Cornwall and the new Stadium.


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 09:38
Great post Brizzer - rest assured that passion is still alive and well. Going to rugby and supporting your club or the Duchy team is one of the rare occasions where we can get together and celebrate our "Cornishness." You are right, we are a bit nuts, but we are also definitely not English and getting behind our team, and having a proper old sing song after the game is one way we can show that. 
20,000 Cornishmen will know the reason why!


Posted By: Taffy
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 14:40
Originally posted by Brizzer Brizzer wrote:

I don’t know about the ‘Exeter model’ or the ‘Leicester model’ et al, all that I know is that the Cornish are nuts for their rugby (or just nuts in general).
I will never forget coming back from a long weekend with a load of mates from Newquay and changing at Par to get the 125 back to London, only to find the whole train literally rammed with Cornish rugby fans on their way to Twickenham for the county championship final. That was only 1 train of many and there were thousands and thousands of them. Now, I know that this was in about 1990, but that sort of passion just does not die out.
IMHO the S4C will be a huge success and good luck to them. Can’t wait to see it.

On a similar note, when I lived in St. Austell in the nineties, it was a case of "Last one out of Cornwall turn the lights out" when Cornwall reached the County Championship finals at Twickenham. Was it v Lancashire? memory is fading these days


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 15:49
Spot on - nobody is questioning the fact that Cornwall has passionate and committed fans but the debate surrounds the viability of the proposed stadium and the prospects for another Prem side in the SW.

Whatever the outcome it has been a reasoned and constructive debate demonstrating everything that is positive about this forum.


Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 16:13
.


Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 16:14
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

Originally posted by Taffy Taffy wrote:

Originally posted by Brizzer Brizzer wrote:

I don’t know about the ‘Exeter model’ or the ‘Leicester model’ et al, all that I know is that the Cornish are nuts for their rugby (or just nuts in general).
I will never forget coming back from a long weekend with a load of mates from Newquay and changing at Par to get the 125 back to London, only to find the whole train literally rammed with Cornish rugby fans on their way to Twickenham for the county championship final. That was only 1 train of many and there were thousands and thousands of them. Now, I know that this was in about 1990, but that sort of passion just does not die out.
IMHO the S4C will be a huge success and good luck to them. Can’t wait to see it.

On a similar note, when I lived in St. Austell in the nineties, it was a case of "Last one out of Cornwall turn the lights out" when Cornwall reached the County Championship finals at Twickenham. Was it v Lancashire? memory is fading these days


Yorkshire, after extra time, in 1991. I remembered that much - one of my most enjoyable trips to 'HQ' even with no real link to the Duchy - but have refreshed my memory with some of the details via t'internet: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/13142015" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/13142015


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 09:41
Talking of Yorks I hope you are all following the Leeds/Y Carnegie saga on a separate thread.

If what you say is correct the RFU would be better off supporting Pirates although that doesn't work for them geographically.


Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 09:55
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Talking of Yorks I hope you are all following the Leeds/Y Carnegie saga on a separate thread.

If what you say is correct the RFU would be better off supporting Pirates although that doesn't work for them geographically.

Exeter is 90 miles (an hour and a half on a good day) from Truro and 110 from Penzance. Further than Leeds to Newcastle. So still a fair old geographical spread. 


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 10:42
To some extent it is not surprising tha the faw West and also the Far East have the longest drives to any major club. Great Yarmouth is equally remote - it is over 110 miles to Saracens - there nearest club.  It is a factor of population density.

If you were looking to have a goegraphic spread of teams, you would not have Bristol, Bath and Gloucester in the Premiership. But there is too much passion and history to change.

You might want a team in Birmingham - rather than ringing it with Worcester, Wasps (Cooventry) and Leicester - but probably in terms of travel time that works.

But the obvious area with population and no top team is West Yorkshire.





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Blood and Sand


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 11:11
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:



If you were looking to have a goegraphic spread of teams, you would not have Bristol, Bath and Gloucester in the Premiership. But there is too much passion and history to change.

You might want a team in Birmingham - rather than ringing it with Worcester, Wasps (Cooventry) and Leicester - but probably in terms of travel time that works.




 

first sentence I agree with - the RFU should have seized control at professionalism because with any ring-fenced league we've got the wrong teams in the wrong places at level 1 currently for any kind of national strategic plan to grown the game.

Second sentence is a bit different. There's plenty of rugby played in Birmingham, but the crowds at the top side (Moseley basically) have never been great.

Part of that will be down to the fact that crowds everywhere were not as good as they are now in amateur days (aside from derbies), and so no one's ever found out what a fully pro set-up in Birmingham playing in the top tier could achieve. OTOH, I do know anecdotally of people travelling to watch Worcester* or Wasps, but fundamentally suspect that most of Moseley's missing supporters aren't watching rugby anymore live.

*I'd love to know how many people that watch Worcester started their rugby supporting careers at the Reddings because I suspect it might be quite high. Fickle things people....


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keep the faith


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 11:22
Well we know at least on fan of the other code used to cycle from Worcester to Wolverhampton to watch games on a bike made in the town Wolerhampton not Worcester - a Royal Sunbeam.
Elgar even composed a special piece for the Wolves. 




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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 11:32
Worcester is a strange one because back in my day it was a team on a par wifh Stockport,Stourbridge,Solihull, Sheffield etc. Quite where there fans come from I have no idea but its certainly not a Bristol or Gloucester.


Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 11:59
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

Worcester is a strange one because back in my day it was a team on a par wifh Stockport,Stourbridge,Solihull, Sheffield etc. Quite where there fans come from I have no idea but its certainly not a Bristol or Gloucester.

Birmingham. Only a few minutes down the M5.

Finding a population from which to draw a crowd isn't really a problem for Worcester. Worcestershire has  larger population than the county of Cornwall. Worcester is pretty much central in the quite compact county, with nowhere much over 30 miles away. Next door, it has Birmingham with over a million population, and the same again in the rest of the conurbation.


Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 12:15
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:



But the obvious area with population and no top team is West Yorkshire.




But could quite easily come to South Yorkshire and also have the audience of Lincolnshire as well as Yorkshire - West Yorks is the other code country Wink


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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 16:39
You mention League DK but Yorks always had some top clubs with established internationals pre pro days. Indeed Wakefield,Headingly,Harrogate , Roundhay,Morley and Sheffield were all rated above Otley and ( Upper) Wharfedale whilst Rotherham were well below the radar.

I think I'm right in saying that the SW ( incl Cornwall) always attracted crowds on a par with or indeed above the London clubs with the only other well supported clubs being located in the East Midlands.

It could be said that the core of the Prem is made up of clubs who were well established and well supported back in the 70's ( although Sarries were not top drawer in those days) . Worcester appear to have tapped into the support base in the W Midlands whilst Sale has arguably emerged as the most successful of the newer regional sides. Exeter are something of a one off as discussed elsewhere and certain clubs have just failed to adapt for whatever reason.

no doubt the debate will continue but I'm not sure that the RFU has thought things through.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 16:43
I think Cecil Duckworth and Worcester Heating (now Bosch) pumped as much money into Worcester as SWComms did into Exeter.

Success takes money and time.
You cannot build  up a fan base quickly.


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Blood and Sand


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 19:09
I'm sure you are correct but that takes us back to question of sustainability.


Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 19:43
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

You mention League DK but Yorks always had some top clubs with established internationals pre pro days. Indeed Wakefield,Headingly,Harrogate , Roundhay,Morley and Sheffield were all rated above Otley and ( Upper) Wharfedale whilst Rotherham were well below the radar.

I think I'm right in saying that the SW ( incl Cornwall) always attracted crowds on a par with or indeed above the London clubs with the only other well supported clubs being located in the East Midlands.

It could be said that the core of the Prem is made up of clubs who were well established and well supported back in the 70's ( although Sarries were not top drawer in those days) . Worcester appear to have tapped into the support base in the W Midlands whilst Sale has arguably emerged as the most successful of the newer regional sides. Exeter are something of a one off as discussed elsewhere and certain clubs have just failed to adapt for whatever reason.

no doubt the debate will continue but I'm not sure that the RFU has thought things through.

East Midlands? It's not so long ago that the E Mids clubs struggled to emulate the crowds at Cov.

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Our City,
Our Club


Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 21:11
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

You mention League DK but Yorks always had some top clubs with established internationals pre pro days. Indeed Wakefield,Headingly,Harrogate , Roundhay,Morley and Sheffield were all rated above Otley and ( Upper) Wharfedale whilst Rotherham were well below the radar.

I think I'm right in saying that the SW ( incl Cornwall) always attracted crowds on a par with or indeed above the London clubs with the only other well supported clubs being located in the East Midlands.

It could be said that the core of the Prem is made up of clubs who were well established and well supported back in the 70's ( although Sarries were not top drawer in those days) . Worcester appear to have tapped into the support base in the W Midlands whilst Sale has arguably emerged as the most successful of the newer regional sides. Exeter are something of a one off as discussed elsewhere and certain clubs have just failed to adapt for whatever reason.

no doubt the debate will continue but I'm not sure that the RFU has thought things through.

East Midlands? It's not so long ago that the E Mids clubs struggled to emulate the crowds at Cov.
 
Define East Midlands


Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 22:12
The East Midlands is one of nine official regions of England at the first level of NUTS for statistical purposes. It consists of Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Lincolnshire (except North and North East Lincolnshire), Northamptonshire, Nottinghamshire and Rutland.


(The Classification of Territorial Units for Statistics, (NUTS, for the French nomenclature d'unités territoriales statistiques), is a geocode standard for referencing the administrative divisions of countries for statistical purposes. The standard was developed by the European Union.)


Posted By: The Joy of (Level) 7
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 22:32
Originally posted by Bigmal Bigmal wrote:

I'm sure you are correct but that takes us back to question of sustainability.

Spot on.

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TJOS


Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 23:08
East Midlands = Leicester and Northampton in this discussion afaiac.

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Our City,
Our Club


Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 08:44
Perhaps I should go " off piste" and follow the European theme and raise the following questions which are relevant :-

1. What size crowds did Coventry attract during the pre -pro years ?

2. How did Coventry ( like a few others e.g Bedford and Nottingham) lose it's place as one of England's premier clubs.

3. How do the current crowds at Wasps compare with the old days and has the club drawn old Cov fans out of the closet?

I've fallen foul of the East V West Mids squabble before but remember this thread is about the proposed stadium for Cornwall and by definition survival and sustainability in the professional era - there must be a reason why certain clubs kicked on and others fell by the wayside. It has to be said that the Midlands appear to have suffered in this respect.


Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 09:26
I’ve only been in Coventry for a little over 30 years, so can’t speak for crowd numbers before that. It does mean though that I started watching regularly while the club was on the slide, have seen it through some pretty rough times, and am now enjoying seeing a recovery.

My reading of it is that the committee in the members club days failed to handle the change to the league-based system well. Arrogance brought from the glory days led to financial weakness. At the same time that the team was challenging to get back to the top tier, the bailiffs were visiting and seizing the furniture from the bar.

The club went through several owner/chairmen who in turn bankrupted themself, moved the club and sold on much less than the buyer thought, and then didn’t have the funds to run the club, before the final one of the three attempted to put the club into liquidation, but was not even competent to “do that, before it was saved by being placed into administration.l

The route back to viability came from this with the formation of a management board of investors, who turned it round, spent slowly and carefully, and found a chairman from within. It was why it took so long for Coventry to get back to the Second tier, with a long period with semi- professional coaching staff (primarily former players), before the next stage was started with bringing in the current DoR.

I don’t take a huge interest in Wasps, so won’t comment on their crowds, but will just point out that Coventry crowds have been growing since Wasps have been in the city. Rugby has a higher profile in the local media, and Coventry have enjoyed a period of success.


Posted By: Rinkadink
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 11:44
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:



If you were looking to have a goegraphic spread of teams, you would not have Bristol, Bath and Gloucester in the Premiership. But there is too much passion and history to change.

You might want a team in Birmingham - rather than ringing it with Worcester, Wasps (Cooventry) and Leicester - but probably in terms of travel time that works.




 

first sentence I agree with - the RFU should have seized control at professionalism because with any ring-fenced league we've got the wrong teams in the wrong places at level 1 currently for any kind of national strategic plan to grown the game.




Love the salt flowing over in this post coupled with hypocrisy. I hope you never get your wish.

Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Everton. Around 30 miles between them all? Midlands rugby clubs (Leicester, Northampton, Wasps, Coventry, Nottingham, Mosley, etc) are far more condensed than the West country clubs; Kingsholm to Ashton Gate is 43 miles (about the same distance as Mose to Tiggers), 53 to the Recreation Ground... never mind to Sandy Park (110 miles) or the Mennaye (224 miles).

Using your criteria if anything needs culling it would be a couple of Midlands clubs for northern ones?

Back in reality you're suggesting that in order to "grow the game" you need to remove the clubs with some of the largest attendances in the country aka reduce the number of people actively supporting our sport and some of the biggest draws in club rugby. That is going to turn out very well isn't it? What we need to grow the game is a larger premiership and championship (14 a piece) to enable it and better funding for the second tier (alongside a more professional and pragmatic approach from some of the clubs below the premiership).


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 12:21
Originally posted by Rinkadink Rinkadink wrote:

Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:



If you were looking to have a goegraphic spread of teams, you would not have Bristol, Bath and Gloucester in the Premiership. But there is too much passion and history to change.

You might want a team in Birmingham - rather than ringing it with Worcester, Wasps (Cooventry) and Leicester - but probably in terms of travel time that works.




 

first sentence I agree with - the RFU should have seized control at professionalism because with any ring-fenced league we've got the wrong teams in the wrong places at level 1 currently for any kind of national strategic plan to grown the game.




Love the salt flowing over in this post coupled with hypocrisy. I hope you never get your wish.

Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Everton. Around 30 miles between them all? Midlands rugby clubs (Leicester, Northampton, Wasps, Coventry, Nottingham, Mosley, etc) are far more condensed than the West country clubs; Kingsholm to Ashton Gate is 43 miles (about the same distance as Mose to Tiggers), 53 to the Recreation Ground... never mind to Sandy Park (110 miles) or the Mennaye (224 miles).

Using your criteria if anything needs culling it would be a couple of Midlands clubs for northern ones?

Back in reality you're suggesting that in order to "grow the game" you need to remove the clubs with some of the largest attendances in the country aka reduce the number of people actively supporting our sport and some of the biggest draws in club rugby. That is going to turn out very well isn't it? What we need to grow the game is a larger premiership and championship (14 a piece) to enable it and better funding for the second tier (alongside a more professional and pragmatic approach from some of the clubs below the premiership).
 

Hang on, that's a great little bit of projection... and really quite nasty in tone as well...

Yes, if I was starting from a blank piece of paper I would divide the country into segments and give them each one club, none based on existing clubs. You're quite right, there are too many in the Midlands.

But we haven't got a blank slate to start from, and in reality you are quite right in your diagnosis of the actual best way forward.

So with that in mind, I look forward to your apology. "Salt" and "hypocrisy" are completely both inaccurate and uncalled for. I can only assume that you've had a couple of poor nights sleep in the hot weather.

Indeed, if you actually read the thread exchange between Camquin and I, including *the post of mine that you (selectively) quoted*, you'll see that I'm saying quite clearly that there may well *not* be a case for a prem team in Birmingham.... I'd be fine with that actually.

I think you missed the target there.


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keep the faith


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 11:59
Talk of franchises spread around the country is a load of rubbish IMO.

Remember the vitriol when Wasps announce they were moving to Coventry?

You seem to advocate a 'build it and they will come' attitude whilst destroying current clubs who have the large fan bases.

Additionally, I have always been led to believe that supporters in Cornwall are very parochial - so it remains to be seen if there really would be enough support for Pirates even in a new stadium.

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RAID ON


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 13:14
Who me?

No I wish the sport had done something different in 1995 - which is what I wrote and not what you seem to think I wrote...

The current clubs with the large fanbases have done really well since 1995 to build their crowds and infrastructure and, for the hard of reading, we have no choice but to build on that. We are where we are. My intellectual point is that we shouldn’t have gone down the road we went down to start with. I would hope no one is mad enough to advocate tearing it all up now, haven’t written that in this thread, and am at a loss to know where you’ve picked up the idea that that’s what i’m saying - unless you’re merely running with Rinkadink’s inaccurate caricature of what’s actually been posted.

I don’t mind being disagreed with on forums - that’s what discussion in for, but being pulled up twice for something I haven’t said is a bit off.


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keep the faith


Posted By: Dotcom
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 13:32
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Additionally, I have always been led to believe that supporters in Cornwall are very parochial - so it remains to be seen if there really would be enough support for Pirates even in a new stadium.

Historically you are right, however The Stadium is likely to be viewed as 'Neutral Ground' so in many respects overcomes that issue. 

There is strong evidence of this from days playing at Camborne when crowds were regularly in the 3,000s (Plus one season at a temporary ground in Truro).

Also the Pirates squad not only includes players from clubs across Cornwall but also works with the clubs and thus represents a Pan Cornish support base


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 13:45
Originally posted by Dotcom Dotcom wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Additionally, I have always been led to believe that supporters in Cornwall are very parochial - so it remains to be seen if there really would be enough support for Pirates even in a new stadium.


Historically you are right, however The Stadium is likely to be viewed as 'Neutral Ground' so in many respects overcomes that issue. 

There is strong evidence of this from days playing at Camborne when crowds were regularly in the 3,000s (Plus one season at a temporary ground in Truro).

Also the Pirates squad not only includes players from clubs across Cornwall but also works with the clubs and thus represents a Pan Cornish support base


A crowd of 3000 is probably sufficient to support Championship rugby, but not for a Premiership side.

I know Cornwall can muster 20000 to go to Twickenham for a county final, but seriously doubt anything like this number would turn out on a fortnightly basis.

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RAID ON


Posted By: Rinkadink
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 16:11
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:


I don’t mind being disagreed with on forums

Well that doesn't appear to be the case, you even PMed me.

Quote that’s what discussion in for, but being pulled up twice for something I haven’t said is a bit off.

But that's exactly what you said; that you agree with the first sentence and the RFU should seize control. Here is the sentence you were referring to;

"If you were looking to have a goegraphic spread of teams, you would not have Bristol, Bath and Gloucester in the Premiership."

By implication the second you did not agree with read;

"But there is too much passion and history to change."

...

You then went on about "wrong teams" in "wrong places" and all the rest and wonder why people are disagreeing with you when you clearly complained about these singled out wrong west country clubs when the Midlands by your criteria is far more problematic, hence the hypocrisy.

Even if you've changed your tune or giving benefit of doubt poorly communicated your argument in the first place you are still advocating the destruction or depowering of long existing and well supported clubs, even back in the advent of professionalism. Look to Wales for a case study of your proposal.

On a side note when you use strong terms to make your points you can in turn expect others to use them. To be absolutely clear I have not meant to cause personal upset and I apologise profusely if I have.



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