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Poll on the RFU &Yorkshire Carnegie - Event Date: 29 Jul 2019 - 30 Aug 2019

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Poll Question: Do you agree with the RFU allowing YC to play in the Championship
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
134 [87.58%]
2 [1.31%]
12 [7.84%]
1 [0.65%]
1 [0.65%]
3 [1.96%]
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Halliford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 22:45
But a CVA means that no Insolvency practitioner is appointed.
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Big Eddie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 06:42
For those that didn't read the article that I linked to on the previous page entitled "Rugby and the Law" by Ben Cisneros I copy an extract below which sets out the experience of Yorkshire Carnegie player Antonio Kiri Kiri who is just one of the players affected. (and there will also be staff and small business and other suppliers just as badly affected)

"However, on 26 July, the RFU announced that the Carnegie could remain a participant of the Greene King IPA Championship (the “Championship”) for the 2019/20 season, subject to certain conditions relating to the CVA. The RFU’s statement added that “the case remains subject to review”.

Indeed, concerns remain. There are inevitable question marks over the Carnegie’s long-term viability but, above all, there are concerns over the way that the club has treated its players throughout the financial upheaval.

I spoke to Antonio Kiri Kiri, a former All Blacks Sevens player who represented the club during the 2018/19 season, who revealed that players have had their contracts cut short and are being asked to pay outstanding medical bills.

“The Club played down the severity of situation for a very long time, leaving a lot of us with a false sense of security…By the time we were told they would not be able to honour the remainder of our contracts, it was very late in the signing season, and there weren’t many places available in squads throughout the Championship,” Kiri Kiri said.

He had moved to Leeds from New Zealand, with his girlfriend and dog, on the basis of a two-year contract with the club. He is one of the lucky few who has been able to pick up a contract elsewhere – at Cornish Pirates – but his new salary is only “66 per cent of the salary that originally attracted [him] to move [his] life to the UK”.

The CVA process has offered Kiri Kiri 15% of the difference between his contract with Carnegie, and his new contract – a sum which he notes “doesn’t even cover the cost of moving everything down to Cornwall”.

Perhaps worst of all, Kiri Kiri told me that he is now “receiving medical bills from radiology departments in Leeds saying that Carnegie are refusing to cover these bills”. Though he says that the hospital has been very understanding, he is clearly incredibly disappointed at the state of affairs:

“I moved from the other side of the world to play for Carnegie – who were last in the Championship at the time – and I held up my end of the contract. As soon as things went wrong, I felt I was kicked to the curb without any sign of remorse from the board”.



Edited by Big Eddie - 07 Aug 2019 at 07:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 08:02
The longer this drags on, the more I believe they're going to get away scot-free, without even a points deduction.

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castleparknight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 08:13
At which point do the Championship Club Chairpersons get to speak out on this matter, if not publicly at least to the RFU. This is a shambles, and much as I feel for the Carnegie supporters I honestly feel that the club should be facing the maximum possible penalty from the RFU. Richmond should regain their berth in the Championship and sadly the leagues below will take a hit - the RFU should compensate them for this impact, as it is the RFU's doing that has caused this mess.

Being from up north I can't say I want to see another club from up here drop out of the Championship but this would be a deserved action in this case. Come on RFU try to recover some of your lost dignity by doing the right thing.
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 08:34
Originally posted by castleparknight castleparknight wrote:

This is a shambles, and much as I feel for the Carnegie supporters I honestly feel that the club should be facing the maximum possible penalty from the RFU. Richmond should regain their berth in the Championship 

To be fair to the Yorkshire Carnegie supporters they are as appalled as the rest of us. They have a thread on their forum entitled "Utter Disgust" and there seems to be very little support indeed for the Yorkshire Carnegie management or the current status.

I don't know how Yorkshire Carnegie can continue, I have seen all sorts of business phoenixes in my time but none have succeeded when:

1. Their brand has been trashed
2. They have lost all their employees
3. They have alienated their existing customers
4. Their previous product had little customer support
5. Their new product is not expected to be fit for purpose
6. There is significant better performing local competition 
7. They have little in the way of new finance available to them
8. They will be relying on the management which got them into the mess in the first place

However the RFU must see something I have missed because they are investing £500k plus for Yorkshire Carnegie to continue in the Championship. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omnes Paviores Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 08:37
Senior RFU decision makers cannot get involved at the moment. They are too busy sorting out their flights, hotels and stadium seats in Japan making sure their personal costs are kept to a minimum.

It would be interesting to review a list of who is going to Japan and how much they are personally paying and are their partners joining them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 08:57
Am I correct that the RFU require rugby debts to be settled in full, irrespective of any arrangements made under a CVA? If so, I am struggling to understand how the medical bills of contracted rugby players resulting from injuries sustained whilst playing rugby for a rugby club are anything other than rugby debts. Actually, shouldn't the salaries of contracted rugby players be rugby debts also?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 09:01
Another post on the Yorkshire Carnegie Forum from LeemingTyke who from his previous posts again seems to be a die hard YC fan. It is good to see that even  partisan Yorkshire Carnegie supporters recognise that YC have not acted within the spirit of Rugby values. 

I cannot see if this is the view of even partisan Yorkshire Carnegie supporters how the RFU can allow this farcical situation to continue 

LeemingTyke's post below

"1. The club is morally bankrupt but legally quite savvy. 

2. The players under contract who found new clubs will only get 15% of the difference between their old & new contracts as opposed to 15% of what remained of their Carnegie contracts. In some cases, as it seems to be with Antonio Kiri Kiri, that will be a pittance and indeed, if the player is getting the same or more at his new club, presumably he'll get nothing? 

3. It reinforces my long held, and sometimes posted, belief that you simply cannot believe a word the club says. It seems, from what Antonio is quoted as saying, that the club purposely played down the enormity of the situation to the players making it more difficult for them to find new clubs when the truth came out. 

As others have previously said, the club should act in the spirit of Rugby Union and approach the players with an offer to pay the medical bills in full. It won't erase this shameful episode from the memory, but it is the very least that they can now do."

if this is how Carnegie treats it's people, who in their right mind is going to want to play for us.




Edited by Big Eddie - 07 Aug 2019 at 09:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 11:18
I am guessing that one issue with Leeds/YC paying the medical bills is that if they are on the list of creditors you can not favour one creditor over others under company law.

So they can't pay Leeds infirmary in full whilst only paying A.N.Other Tape supplier 15p in the £

The bit about only paying a % of the difference is similar - i would expect the players are actually personal services companies, as such they are company creditors not employees so they will also be due 15p in the £  of the detriment caused to them hence the paltry sum

(Playing devils advocate here as I think YC are totally morally in the wrong - they just might be legally in the right)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 12:00
Halliford
You need a IP to organise a CVA.

Quote
12/06/2019

Leeds RUFC Ltd, trading as Yorkshire Carnegie, have today proposed a Company Voluntary Agreement with its creditors and Begbies Traynor in Leeds have been appointed to act as joint nominees and supervisors.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 12:03
Dad,

I am sure they will have received proper and expensive legal advice on all of this so I expect them to be legally right as I am sure the RFU are but from any other standpoint it looks to be farcical.

If Yorkshire Carnegie and the RFU are just stuck with a legal straight jacket they should come out and say so. This is now turning into a PR disaster for everyone concerned 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 12:08
Yes - it is why when i went through a prepack in 2008 we had made sure all the small creditors like the milkman and newsagent were paid up and cancelled before we got into the formal process so only the landlord (who had a deposit anyway) really lost out. It was a way of escaping an onerous lease

That way previous suppliers were still happy to work with us again as they had lost nothing 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 12:16
Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

Yes - it is why when i went through a prepack in 2008 we had made sure all the small creditors like the milkman and newsagent were paid up and cancelled before we got into the formal process so only the landlord (who had a deposit anyway) really lost out. It was a way of escaping an onerous lease

That way previous suppliers were still happy to work with us again as they had lost nothing 

You probably still committed what is called a creditor preference by doing so if you knew you were insolvent at the time but that is a practicality that I suppose a lot of businesses have to dance around.

YC haven't been smart and perhaps neither have the players if they have used personal service companies. Everyone saves on NIC but the normal employee protections are lost.

Professional rugby is being shown in a very bad light by all of this. The RFU is showing no leadership or communication and National 1 clubs and other Championship clubs must be expecting this season could be a total shambles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 12:43
we were careful as we were solvent until the rent rise that was coming
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 13:40
Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

we were careful as we were solvent until the rent rise that was coming

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 18:40
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Halliford
You need a IP to organise a CVA.

Quote
<small>12/06/2019</small>
               

Leeds RUFC Ltd, trading as Yorkshire Carnegie, have today
proposed a Company Voluntary Agreement with its creditors and Begbies
Traynor in Leeds have been appointed to act as joint nominees and
supervisors.




Good point! I’ve seen other CVAs without an IP, but thinking about it they are usually pre-pack sales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 19:06
Run with it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trident Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 20:43
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

Yes - it is why when i went through a prepack in 2008 we had made sure all the small creditors like the milkman and newsagent were paid up and cancelled before we got into the formal process so only the landlord (who had a deposit anyway) really lost out. It was a way of escaping an onerous lease

That way previous suppliers were still happy to work with us again as they had lost nothing 

You probably still committed what is called a creditor preference by doing so if you knew you were insolvent at the time but that is a practicality that I suppose a lot of businesses have to dance around.

YC haven't been smart and perhaps neither have the players if they have used personal service companies. Everyone saves on NIC but the normal employee protections are lost.

Professional rugby is being shown in a very bad light by all of this. The RFU is showing no leadership or communication and National 1 clubs and other Championship clubs must be expecting this season could be a total shambles

Doesn't that introduce the spectre of HMRC IR35 ??
As far as i can see it is a clear breach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 21:00
Originally posted by Trident Trident wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

Yes - it is why when i went through a prepack in 2008 we had made sure all the small creditors like the milkman and newsagent were paid up and cancelled before we got into the formal process so only the landlord (who had a deposit anyway) really lost out. It was a way of escaping an onerous lease

That way previous suppliers were still happy to work with us again as they had lost nothing 

You probably still committed what is called a creditor preference by doing so if you knew you were insolvent at the time but that is a practicality that I suppose a lot of businesses have to dance around.

YC haven't been smart and perhaps neither have the players if they have used personal service companies. Everyone saves on NIC but the normal employee protections are lost.

Professional rugby is being shown in a very bad light by all of this. The RFU is showing no leadership or communication and National 1 clubs and other Championship clubs must be expecting this season could be a total shambles

Doesn't that introduce the spectre of HMRC IR35 ??
As far as i can see it is a clear breach.

I think you are almost certainly right Trident and if Yorkshire Carnegie have been involved with personal service companies for players HMRC will be on their case
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 21:26
Originally posted by Runitback Runitback wrote:

http://www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/yorkshire-carnegie-what-has-gone-wrong-/23348.htm

Interesting article, and a good summary for anyone not up to speed. Dreadfully written though...*

*I've actually come back to clarify that I wouldn't normally comment on something like that, but I don't know who talkingrugbyunion are - and if that's an advert for the standard of journalism (in terms of written English) then I'd just say that it's a hard read.


Edited by billesleyexile - 07 Aug 2019 at 21:40
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