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Poll on the RFU &Yorkshire Carnegie - Event Date: 29 Jul 2019 - 30 Aug 2019

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Poll Question: Do you agree with the RFU allowing YC to play in the Championship
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
131 [87.92%]
2 [1.34%]
11 [7.38%]
1 [0.67%]
1 [0.67%]
3 [2.01%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Member728 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 17:35
Originally posted by Runitback Runitback wrote:

I doubt YC have funds to fight them, and if they do acquiesce to YC what is to stop Richmond making a legal challenge.

you may not be to far from the truth
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 17:35
Originally posted by fenboy fenboy wrote:

"....with regard to the medical bills for players, you will be pleased to hear all 12 have been settled by a generous donor who contributed the £1,760 required to cover them all! The rules of the CVA made it illegal for the club to act during the period of the arrangement..."

Posted on the YC supporters Message Board this morning

I wonder if it was Sir Ian McGeechan ?. He is a real Rugby legend and having had the pleasure of meeting him and having long conversations about youth Rugby and Rugby in general , he comes across has a real gentleman and a man with morals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 18:07
Seeing the endless, self-righteous circular postings, of ever increasing length, going round and round on both Leeds threads on Rolling Maul, I would suggest two very simple actions that may answer an awful lot of questions.

Look at the CVA linked earlier, and see who the major creditor was.

Consider their relationship with Yorkshire Carnegie.

The whole affair then looks like a very planned way of removing a very large amount of debt from two sets of books.

Edited by OldNick - 08 Aug 2019 at 18:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 11:10
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Seeing the endless, self-righteous circular postings, of ever increasing length, going round and round on both Leeds threads on Rolling Maul, I would suggest two very simple actions that may answer an awful lot of questions.

Look at the CVA linked earlier, and see who the major creditor was.

Consider their relationship with Yorkshire Carnegie.

The whole affair then looks like a very planned way of removing a very large amount of debt from two sets of books.

I had to check before I replied Old Nick and you are right the major creditor who received an 85% haircut was Yorkshire Tykes Limited who were owed £4.75 million but there are also a lot of other creditors who would very definitely not have been up for a haircut before they were offered 15% or nothing including:

HMRC                                                                  £185k
Various Players                                                     £500k +
various small creditors not connected to the club     £125k+

and there are a ruck of others including Leeds Becket University who were owed £109k and some large sums owed to individuals who are presumably shareholders or directors. This was not a harmless transaction involving only accounting entries, a lot of people including the shareholders have been financially damaged.

I am not being sanctimonious about this business failure, these things happen and I know nothing of the management of the business so that is not something I am going to voice an opinion on.

My concern is all about the going forward from this point and I cannot see the fairness or the purpose in allowing Yorkshire Carnegie to continue in the Championship................perhaps someone can enlighten me.


Edited by Big Eddie - 09 Aug 2019 at 11:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 11:46
Please note, I did not say in any way that the process was harmless. Cynical and amoral by the major parties involved would be more like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 12:30
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Please note, I did not say in any way that the process was harmless. Cynical and amoral by the major parties involved would be more like it.

Fair enough Old Nick. I would also agree that the people who have clearly lost the most financially appear to be the directors and shareholders. If I had invested many millions in such a venture I wouldn't expect to be pilloried when I eventually withdrew my support.

Sir Ian McGeechan  seems to have lost some £70k personally as well through his consultancy business.

However the extent of this failure and the many £millions that have been lost together with the complete disintegration of the side does make the RFU's decision to support a Phoenix truly bizarre.

Why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 12:55
For what it's worth set out below is a recent post from the Yorkshire Carnegie forum by someone called Almostatyke. His post is an explanation to another YC supporter as to why the financial collapse occurred and why the management team were not reckless in signing players on 2 year deals.

The explanation was not acceptable to a number of YC supporters who remained very critical of management but from my perspective I do have some sympathy if the circumstances were as Almostatyke suggests.

Maybe John Wright is still up for bankrolling Yorkshire Carnegie and is able to do so if his fortune is now not under claim from Private Equity interests?

Could this be the reason that the RFU is continuing with their support?

From Amostatyke on the Yorkshire Carnegie Forum on sports network...(obviously I do not know if the circumstances are as Almostatyke suggests but it sounds plausible)

"The cornerstone benefactor in Carnegie was Jon Wright, founder of Xercise4less, the gym chain based in Leeds. He re-financed his business at the end of last year, in a move that he thought would release his own personal wealth from the business, some of which was supporting Carnegie. Unfortunately, the Private Equity Company that provided the "re-finance" then stabbed him in the back, without warning, and demanded that his personal guarantee money should not be "lost" in financing Carnegie. 
He had no alternative than to advise the shareholders/board of this, which happened about the turn of the year. 

it was completely unexpected, so players had been signed on two year contracts in good faith. 

You can take whatever view of Jon Wright's naivety or perhaps the Private Equity Firm's aggressiveness, but why of why do people think of this as a management failure?"


Edited by Big Eddie - 09 Aug 2019 at 13:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 13:38
There is too little detail there to form a balanced judgment. Was he really 'stabbed in the back' or didn't he check things properly? We'll never know. To hire players on a promise was not very prudent.
Sorry to be  dubious, but the whole thing does seem to have been a shambles.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Joy of (Level) 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 13:46
Is there a specific time that today’s RFU statement on the current “state of play” will be made?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greeneyed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 13:48
Management failure is not suffering the unavoidable withdrawal of a benefactor. It is getting into the situation where a benefactor is necessary in the first place. Oh dear - perhaps I have just described the plight of the vast majority of the Premiership, the Championship, the National Leagues, etc etc etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 14:01
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

There is too little detail there to form a balanced judgment. Was he really 'stabbed in the back' or didn't he check things properly? We'll never know. To hire players on a promise was not very prudent.
Sorry to be  dubious, but the whole thing does seem to have been a shambles.


I completely agree Pappas ...........Almostatyke's post maybe pure conjecture and based on nothing. 

My only purpose in quoting it was to be fair and to bring some balance to the discussion through potentially mitigating circumstances and to air a possible reason why the RFU are continuing to support Yorkshire Carnegie's continuing involvement in the Championship.

Almostatyke's explanation appears plausible to me but he is probably somewhat out of order in suggesting that some PE house stabbed YC's benefactor in the back ......if all this happened as Almostatyke suggests they were probably only following a sensible legal process to protect their interests. 
Financial institutions don't have emotions or do things outside their charter and responsibilities


Edited by Big Eddie - 09 Aug 2019 at 14:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 14:42
Xercise4less was burning through cash and showing serious loses . . . I have never seen a PE company stab anyone in the back, they just drive hard and normally prudent deals. If he was stabbed in the back he was very badly advised . .  the business was on the brink of collapse, so re-financing was never going to be on his terms!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 17:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 17:36
WHAT A JOKE!!! RFU a disgrace !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donnyladinsheffield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 17:57
Still not out of the woods.  No players yet it seems.

Also it is usually a condition of CVAs that you keep up the payments due (i.e. the 15% in this case) and do not get into arrears with creditors in the future.  If that happens Supervisors of CVA will usually step in and wind up straight away.

I cant see them getting through the season without that happening.  Lets face it they still have the same management who it seems spent money they did not have on the promise of some income from an investor who it turns out could not provide it.  That failure to do due diligence does not bode well, nor does the failure to learn from what happened to LW.  Any proper due diligence would have shown the investor had not done his!  Cant see the stabbing in back being true.  If he knew a guarentee was needed who should have known a condition would be not sinking his cash in a rugby club.  It's not for no reason is it said the way to end up with £1m from investing in a rugby club is to start with £2m.  If he did not know a guarentee would be needed then it begs the question why?  At best you could say he has been optimistic in offering the money before he could be sure it was free, but that then comes back to the failure of the club managemnt to secure the funds before spending them.

So where will Leeds get the money to see out the season?  Its not going to be from attendances at Headingly that is for sure. I can see fans refusing to go. There financial position is likley to be worse than when they got in this mess.

Farce all round from the RFU and there will be worse from them in saving Leeds mid season when they go pop as that sort of failure will reflect badly (more so possibly) than thier current inability to deal with this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donnyladinsheffield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 18:03
Oh--and there is also mi' learned friends that Richmond may set on the whole situation to deal with.  Message on Leeds website looks like a shifting of goal posts.  It was supposed to be all creditors agreed to CVA but is now all have agreed or have been paid by a third party.  That is not the same thing. 

Also I am sure they will be looking at how much of a third party they really are and whether they amount to a preferential payment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 18:09
It stinks. Pure & simple. Anyone else would’ve been thrown to the wolves as were Scottish, Welsh & others.

Shame on you RFU, shame on you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 18:13
Originally posted by Old Gold Old Gold wrote:

It stinks. Pure & simple. Anyone else would’ve been thrown to the wolves as were Scottish, Welsh & others.

Shame on you RFU, shame on you.

Yup.........it beggars belief!

If I have read the statement correctly it suggests that the players accepted the 85% haircut and then some third party paid off in full those that did not agree to the CVA!

That doesn't sound fair at all if my understanding is correct.


Edited by Big Eddie - 09 Aug 2019 at 18:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2019 at 08:55
Another Yorkshire Carnegie supporter from their forum on sports network called Leemingtyke is still hanging in there but only just.

from leemingtyke yesterday

"I completely get, that the club have repeatedly deliberately misled supporters for many years, treated Stirlo and his team absolutely appallingly and have presided over years of abject failure to the point where we are now on the brink of becoming a Premiership teams reserve team just to survive, and that those people are still in situ. It's embarrassing and I totally understand long standing fans walking away having had enough. I agree with all that and, further, if we do become a Premiership reserve team or worse, if we put a team of University students out against reasoned Championship performers without any regard for their safety, then I may well be one of those walking away"

Many of Yorkshire Tykes die hard supporters including their first child mascot have indicated on the YC sports network forum they have had enough and will no longer support them.

However the RFU of course are still very supportive of Yorkshire Tykes to the tune of £500k + !









Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Aug 2019 at 08:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2019 at 08:57
Makes you wish you were a fly on the wall in certain places.
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