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JonDee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2020 at 15:46
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Darth Raider Darth Raider wrote:


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Why don't we play national league rugby on a  Sunday afternoon ? If your preference was to watch 
Leicester  Tigers or Leicester City on a Saturday, you might still fancy a trip to Leicester Lions on a Sunday.  I was trying to think of all pros and cons.  It looks like a possible win in terms of gate size and revenue ?  I think the French do it......others too.  Why compete with anything if you don't have to ?
How many that already attend on a Saturday would NOT come on a Sunday ?

Thoughts anyone ?  I am hoping to live long enough to see crowds of 2000 at the Rugby Park....this observation normally heralds hoots of derision LOL




You are forgetting in the North Sunday would lead to competition with the Rugby League clubs who (depending on the whims of Sky TV) play most of their games. 

I would support local derbies being played midweek or Friday nights under floodlights or more leeway on kick-off times on Saturday's - if teams kicked off earlier, would that lead to more interest as it would free more of the latter part of the day for players to spend with their families etc.
You would need to factor in travel time for the opposition but with teams close to each other, why not kick off at 12 noon or 1pm? 


Nottingham are not allowed to play on a Saturday by the Police / Council as they are situated less than a mile from Notts County and Forest who play Saturdays unless the demands of TV change that . So they play Fri Nights and Sundays , Fri nights means virtually no away supporters but they have developed the corporate side quite well and local companies use it for corporate entertainment. Sundays also work ok Mini and Junior Teams home and away are often given free entrance for the 1st team game.
Its not perfect but works
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote French Connection Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2020 at 17:44
Fed 3 here in France is Level 5 as Nat 3 is in England, but there are big differences. In France we have the Top 14, then Pro D2 (one division,equivalent to the Championship) then the Federal Leagues:
Fed 1 - 4 divisions of 12 - there''s a match a week on national TV as well
Fed 2 - 12 Divisions of 12
Fed 3 - 14 Divisions of 12
The league season is simply seen as a means of qualifying for the post season national tournament - the top 4 qualify In Fed 3 you have to win 2 rounds in the tournament to be promoted as well.
As you can see from the above, the pyramid is much flatter here, because of the geography of the place. Many more players just stay at their local club - we hardly have any movement at the end of a season although I think it's different in the south where clubs are closer to each other (we're in the north)
The game is not played in schools here, but the clubs are bigger in many ways. Crowds are generally higher as well. We average between 400-600 for a home game, but when we played our local derby against the club up the road we had over 4000 believe it or not. I was even interviewed on the local internet TV station.  As well as all the families, lots of people from the local community come to watch - the club has a big presence in the area. It's a real family business as well - we have young kids playing in the 1st team whose fathers and grandfathers played as well, and our President (equivalent to Chairman) is also the son and grandson of a past President. Ex players don't just disappear either - they stay part of the club and volunteer to do stuff. We have more volunteers than we know what to do with on match days and even training nights.
I'm not sure why the FFR don't go to Saturday rugby - I think it's just because they've done it that way for a long time. I certainly don't think it's because of competition with soccer.
While rugby is big here, we still pale into insignificance compared to soccer, just like in the UK. 
Our senior sides (all French clubs have only a 1st and 2nd team) play on Sundays, but our U18's play on Saturdays as do the women. We have a great Ecole de Rugby and cater for every age group from U7 up, but they don't play matches (or not many) during the season - there a series of tournaments hosted by various clubs towards the end of the season. More sensible in my opinion.
Very different to the UK - some things better, some worse. Like life in general here! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2020 at 19:48
Originally posted by Darth Raider Darth Raider wrote:


Richard.....I don't follow rugby league and I did n't know they played on Sundays.....more education....thanks.  I often forget that our northern sides  have the fully professional rugby league to contend with as well.
But I do wonder why RL have chosen to play on Sundays ?  I assume that that was a commercial decision and that it is to avoid conflict with nearby soccer clubs as well as rugby union sides ?  Given all the negatives posted here as regards playing on Sundays, I would further assume that there must be an quite compelling financial argument in favour ?  
Has Rugby League always been played on a Sunday ? 

I have never been to a live RL game, but have tried watching it on TV many times.  They too all seem to have decent stadia and be pretty well supported, which I find really curious.  The game is about as interesting to me as basketball......just a personal opinion of course.  A shame really as I would like to have more rugby to watch on telly.



Sunday sport as only been around since the late 60s/early 70s and Rugby league were the first major sport to move games to Sundays once the law was changed. It was dying at the time and needed rejuvenation and moving away from Saturday and Football and Rugby Union gave the game a boost. However when all other sports followed suit due to TVs influence that boost was lost. 

Some RL clubs have nice new stadia, financed by selling off old venues or through local authorities investment and the crowds are on par with the Premiership but in the main the game is dying as the RFL look to Internationalise their game with Toronto seemingly more important than Todmorden. 

*Wakefield Trinity's ground is a dump. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2020 at 19:50
I should add that if you take away the outliers of Cumbria, Toronto, France, Wales and London clubs, the distances between RL clubs are short, 90 minutes would be the longest trip I guess. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darth Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2020 at 21:11
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Well....for me at least, this has turned into a fascinating dialogue.

FC.......thanks again.....I would like to respond to every sentence you have written, I am very curious. But I will try and restrain myself to a few more questions and observations.
I suppose if I were to summarise my thoughts briefly, I would suggest that our own NCA should be having an ongoing dialogue with the FFR, or whoever runs the FED leagues in France. It would seem that we might have much to learn from each other and that an regular exchange of information and ideas might help establish best practice on both sides of the channel. 

I should explain by way of background, that I am something of a charlatan, as I was a wendyballer in my own sporting life, before I had an epiphany about 18yrs ago.......triggered by an eventual realisation  that association football had turned into an institutionalised cheating competition (IMO),

In terms of both it's general ethos and it's entertainment value......I watch rugby union as my preference now.......and level 3 and 4 marry well with my own preferences as regards the aspects of the sport that I prefer to see.  I know it is not the highest standard in it's purest form, but I just love running rugby. TongueClap

Anyway.....threads like this one are part of my frustration with how this great sport struggles as part of the sporting framework of our country.  I am a serial failure, but continue to try and promote positive thought about how we might take maximum advantage of what I truly believe is the best sporting spectacle available.  Oops.....banging on again Ouch

Mostly, your description of rugby as a genuine part of the community in every respect is inspiring.  We are able to generate a great atmosphere at my club with crowds of around 600.....but the prospect of 4000 is enticing.  

I'd better wind up for a while now......on my fourth can of Old Speckled Hen (life in isolation has it's partial upside) and may start writing more bollo&ks than usual.

You made a reference at the end about life in general.  I suspect that in England and France, that the main reason the status quo remains is principally, just a natural resistance to change....human nature I'm afraid, particularly among those of us getting on in years.  

Richard added another load of useful info too......if I was to summarise,,,,,,,RL DID change it's playing day to Sunday for commercial reasons....an innovative move that worked initially and I guess, produced the intended improvement in crowds and revenue ?  However, i assume from Richards further commentary that when the competition also moved their games to a Sunday, that this benefit was lost ?

It seems clear to me now, that union clubs in the midlands and the north face a bigger challenge than those in the south and south west.  RFU aid.......should it ever come, might be best prioritised there.

It seems pretty clear regardless......but FC reinforces the message regarding stadia from France.....if you build it they will come ?






 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedPete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 13:17
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Darth Raider Darth Raider wrote:


Richard.....I don't follow rugby league and I did n't know they played on Sundays.....more education....thanks.  I often forget that our northern sides  have the fully professional rugby league to contend with as well.
But I do wonder why RL have chosen to play on Sundays ?  I assume that that was a commercial decision and that it is to avoid conflict with nearby soccer clubs as well as rugby union sides ?  Given all the negatives posted here as regards playing on Sundays, I would further assume that there must be an quite compelling financial argument in favour ?  
Has Rugby League always been played on a Sunday ? 

I have never been to a live RL game, but have tried watching it on TV many times.  They too all seem to have decent stadia and be pretty well supported, which I find really curious.  The game is about as interesting to me as basketball......just a personal opinion of course.  A shame really as I would like to have more rugby to watch on telly.




Sunday sport as only been around since the late 60s/early 70s and Rugby league were the first major sport to move games to Sundays once the law was changed. It was dying at the time and needed rejuvenation and moving away from Saturday and Football and Rugby Union gave the game a boost. However when all other sports followed suit due to TVs influence that boost was lost. 

Some RL clubs have nice new stadia, financed by selling off old venues or through local authorities investment and the crowds are on par with the Premiership but in the main the game is dying as the RFL look to Internationalise their game with Toronto seemingly more important than Todmorden. 

*Wakefield Trinity's ground is a dump. 




IIRC Wakefield Trinity's ground was like that in the 60's, but you wouldn't say that about the team!I say that as someone who used to follow Leeds and went to the famous "watersplash" final.
RL also moved from Winter to Spring/Summer.

Schadenfreude - such a big word for something so small-minded
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 13:56
Originally posted by RedPete RedPete wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Darth Raider Darth Raider wrote:


Richard.....I don't follow rugby league and I did n't know they played on Sundays.....more education....thanks.  I often forget that our northern sides  have the fully professional rugby league to contend with as well.
But I do wonder why RL have chosen to play on Sundays ?  I assume that that was a commercial decision and that it is to avoid conflict with nearby soccer clubs as well as rugby union sides ?  Given all the negatives posted here as regards playing on Sundays, I would further assume that there must be an quite compelling financial argument in favour ?  
Has Rugby League always been played on a Sunday ? 

I have never been to a live RL game, but have tried watching it on TV many times.  They too all seem to have decent stadia and be pretty well supported, which I find really curious.  The game is about as interesting to me as basketball......just a personal opinion of course.  A shame really as I would like to have more rugby to watch on telly.




Sunday sport as only been around since the late 60s/early 70s and Rugby league were the first major sport to move games to Sundays once the law was changed. It was dying at the time and needed rejuvenation and moving away from Saturday and Football and Rugby Union gave the game a boost. However when all other sports followed suit due to TVs influence that boost was lost. 

Some RL clubs have nice new stadia, financed by selling off old venues or through local authorities investment and the crowds are on par with the Premiership but in the main the game is dying as the RFL look to Internationalise their game with Toronto seemingly more important than Todmorden. 

*Wakefield Trinity's ground is a dump. 




IIRC Wakefield Trinity's ground was like that in the 60's, but you wouldn't say that about the team!I say that as someone who used to follow Leeds and went to the famous "watersplash" final.
RL also moved from Winter to Spring/Summer.


Trin's ground in the 60s had better ends, and the lovely old wooden pavilion grandstand that went the way of all such things after the Bradford City fire IIRC.

I'm much younger but do make the trek up to Belle Vue once or twice a season for a Super League fix. One thing that ground has got (as has Castleford's) is proper soul.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 14:57
Originally posted by Darth Raider Darth Raider wrote:



Richard added another load of useful info too......if I was to summarise,,,,,,,RL DID change it's playing day to Sunday for commercial reasons....an innovative move that worked initially and I guess, produced the intended improvement in crowds and revenue ?  However, i assume from Richards further commentary that when the competition also moved their games to a Sunday, that this benefit was lost ?

It seems clear to me now, that union clubs in the midlands and the north face a bigger challenge than those in the south and south west.  RFU aid.......should it ever come, might be best prioritised there.

It seems pretty clear regardless......but FC reinforces the message regarding stadia from France.....if you build it they will come ?



Yes once the advantage is lost, the next step was the move from Winter to Summer rugby to keep one step ahead of the opposition.  Although that did result in splits between the game as some amatuer Rugby league clubs kept to the winter season...

You could argue that maintaining Saturday fixtures, whilst other sports keep moving around the calendar helps create a continuity that creates an audience.  If you know every two weeks a game will take place at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon the audience know where they stand. 

As a sad geek who looks at the art of television scheduling, programmes which are popular in one slot, lose audience when they are moved - this is very true of American network tv, but keep Coronation Street at Monday at 7.30 it will get a larger audience than if you move it to 7.00 on a Tuesday. 

As for the French game - I've always understood it to be more a tribal thing, with a team fully adopted by its village etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 16:28
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:



As for the French game - I've always understood it to be more a tribal thing, with a team fully adopted by its village etc.


A bit like Wales then lol...…………………………..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote French Connection Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 10:06
Spot on about the tribal nature of French club rugby. The vast majority of clubs at Federal League level are a big, big feature of local life - and they absolutely hate the club up the road.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 10:24
Originally posted by French Connection French Connection wrote:

Spot on about the tribal nature of French club rugby. The vast majority of clubs at Federal League level are a big, big feature of local life - and they absolutely hate the club up the road.

Sounds like the Scottish borders clubs too then...…………………..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Hooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2020 at 12:24
Any news gossip re Level 2 transfers yet?
another one against the head
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2020 at 13:34
havent heard anything official from the NCA yet since clubs up for transfer were asked to volunteer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Hooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2020 at 14:10
Tks Stato
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darth Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2020 at 14:34
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The delay of the level transfer announcement is becoming quite curious ?  The only variable seemed to be whether Lions decided to stay South or not ?  I would have thought that this issue would have been discussed internally and most likely, would have been decided by them a while ago.
Hinckley are coming South regardless and Bournville are left up in the air ?

I wonder if the delay might be caused by some other uncertainty as to the composition of the leagues ?
There is little doubt that many if not all will be in a precarious situation financially.  All normal sources of income are gone.......close season festivals and ground usage is gone......and perhaps worst of all, sponsors may find themselves unable to contribute.  
At the least, it is hard to imagine most clubs being able to afford players salaries......which will please some. 
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2020 at 15:17
Originally posted by Darth Raider Darth Raider wrote:


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The delay of the level transfer announcement is becoming quite curious ?  The only variable seemed to be whether Lions decided to stay South or not ?  I would have thought that this issue would have been discussed internally and most likely, would have been decided by them a while ago.
Hinckley are coming South regardless and Bournville are left up in the air ?

I wonder if the delay might be caused by some other uncertainty as to the composition of the leagues ?
There is little doubt that many if not all will be in a precarious situation financially.  All normal sources of income are gone.......close season festivals and ground usage is gone......and perhaps worst of all, sponsors may find themselves unable to contribute.  
At the least, it is hard to imagine most clubs being able to afford players salaries......which will please some. 
   


Agree with your assessment of the Level Transfers.

Like you, I wonder if there are other unknown factors which are being considered.

Possibly teams with major financial problems (hopefully not) or NCA planning for a start later than September - hopefully not the case, especially as attendances are not normally 'mass' in most cases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2020 at 12:22
NCA sent out yesterday the annual request for special circumstances before putting the fixture list together. They had an Exec Meeting this week so we may know more soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Hooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2020 at 15:33
Getting exciting . I trust you are all well at Esher, I include you lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2020 at 20:29
Hinckley and Leicester Lions going south
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2020 at 23:01
Originally posted by stato stato wrote:

Hinckley and Leicester Lions going south

Not surprising, where has that come from Stato?
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