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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 13:50
Originally posted by Remember Izal Remember Izal wrote:

Did somebody mention Scottish grumpiness?
 
Cue Jim Telfer
'

"Scottish rugby should really feel as if they've been badly let down."


I prefer McMoaners! The press do love a troll who they can prod with a stick to fill a few column inches. Isn't this the same Jim Telfer that said that this season's Calcutta Cup was one of Scotland's best chances since 1983 of winning at Twickenham and that England are toothless in attack?

Like all the other McMoaners, he seems incapable of explaining why Scotland were so "badly let down".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 14:13
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by Stoatgobbler Stoatgobbler wrote:

Scotland’s revival, overblown
though it has been by some, together with the admirable patriotic
fervour for which their nation is renowned, means that opprobrium over
their paltry Lions group was to be expected.

But that doesn’t mean it’s justified. In fact, it’s anything but.

Good post all round. The real take home for me is what a fantastic job Vern Cotter and his team did of getting the results that they did of getting the results that they did out of a out of a team containing so few top class players and on the flip side, what a terrible job Rob Howley did with the pool of players available to him.

The one bit I take issue with is considering any of Earls, Zebo and Kearney to be unlucky. The Irish back three was comfortably the worst of the home nations to me, every Irishman I heard comment during the Six Nations was massively disappointed by the lack of talent available in the back three, in particular Simon Zebo, whose try scoring record is terrible.



Definitely improving RoD, have to agree with your sentiments about the Irish back 3, and your assessment of Liam Williams, but in your earlier post referencing Duncan Taylor, Pro 12 doesn't come into it unless Saracens have been league transferred.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 14:50
I agree with what you are saying ROD .For so many Welsh players to go on the Lions tour when they finished 5th in 6 Nations either Howley did a rubbish job in which case why is he one of the coaches or the players did a rubbish job in which case why are so many of them going.
Only time will tell .


Edited by tulip - 20 Apr 2017 at 15:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 15:13
Originally posted by OldExile OldExile wrote:

Definitely improving RoD, have to agree with your sentiments about the Irish back 3, and your assessment of Liam Williams, but in your earlier post referencing Duncan Taylor, Pro 12 doesn't come into it unless Saracens have been league transferred.

Argh! Having watched the first half of Northampton vs Saracens on Sunday afternoon, I really should have known that! I'm my defence, I'm not an avid follower of AP rugby and as such, rightly or wrongly think of Barritt and Bosch as Sarries' centre pairing. Having taken a look on Stat Bunker, I don't think that Taylor's star would be high enough to force his way in after one 35 minute appearance off the bench, a one full appearance and one 45 minute appearance would or should be enough for him to force his way into the Lions squad. Add his name to the "unlucky that injury robbed him of his chance" list for me.

Quite the Tartan Army Sarries are building on the quiet!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 16:00
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

I agree with what you are saying ROD .For so many Welsh players to go on the Lions tour when they finished 5th in 6 Nations either Howley did a rubbish job in which case why is he one of the coaches or the players did a rubbish job in which case why are so many of them going.
Only time will tell .

As I say, if there's a Lions selection to be up in arms about, it's Howley being the attack coach to me. I don't see anything on his CV that suggest that he's anything other than a poor coach at international level or for that matter at club level. I'm surprised by the comment above about the SRU not releasing Gregor Townsend. Was he sought as attack coach? I thought that Howley was appointed then Townsend as offered a token assistant role, which he understandably turned down. If this is the case, the decision is more understandable. England don't have an attack coach as such, I'm not sure who Ireland's is, but their ability to score backs tries didn't shroud whoever it is in glory, so Howley would almost have got the role by default.

Unless one team or the other gets blatantly figured out, I'm not sure that time will tell us all that much to be honest. We will know how the players / coaches selected got on, but won't be to say that X, Y or Z being different would have yielded a better result.

In defence of Wales' Six Nations, you can make an argument that says that they simply played the hand dealt to them. If you ignore Italy's results (reasonable as this time out they were a level below every other side in the tournament), the tournament was all about teams winning their home games, with England's win in Cardiff being the only away win in the tournament. Had Wales enjoyed Scotland's fixture list, playing the grand slam champions away from home and having three home matches including whipping boys Italy at home in the last match of the tournament, they could easily have finished in second place. If the French are proved to have cheated (hopefully this is still sub judice and won't be brushed under the carpet) in Paris, Wales will be able to feel aggrieved not to have finished a whisker behind Ireland in a position that would justify their Lions representation.

Lastly a lot seems to be being hung on the game between Scotland and Wales at Murrayfield, given the significance of home advantage in the Six Nations, if you're using a one of match as a frame of comparison, I'd suggest that it's more instructive to look at the respective home matches against Ireland. Scotland caught them on the hope and managed to hang on from grim life, while Wales fronted up in the back row battle of the tournament and ran out fairly comfortable winners in the end.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 16:09
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by OldExile OldExile wrote:

Definitely improving RoD, have to agree with your sentiments about the Irish back 3, and your assessment of Liam Williams, but in your earlier post referencing Duncan Taylor, Pro 12 doesn't come into it unless Saracens have been league transferred.


Argh! Having watched the first half of Northampton vs Saracens on Sunday afternoon, I really should have known that! I'm my defence, I'm not an avid follower of AP rugby and as such, rightly or wrongly think of Barritt and Bosch as Sarries' centre pairing. Having taken a look on Stat Bunker, I don't think that Taylor's star would be high enough to force his way in after one 35 minute appearance off the bench, a one full appearance and one 45 minute appearance would or should be enough for him to force his way into the Lions squad. Add his name to the "unlucky that injury robbed him of his chance" list for me.

Quite the Tartan Army Sarries are building on the quiet!


That's a gotcha then!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 16:18
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

I agree with what you are saying ROD .For so many Welsh players to go on the Lions tour when they finished 5th in 6 Nations either Howley did a rubbish job in which case why is he one of the coaches or the players did a rubbish job in which case why are so many of them going.
Only time will tell .


As I say, if there's a Lions selection to be up in arms about, it's Howley being the attack coach to me. I don't see anything on his CV that suggest that he's anything other than a poor coach at international level or for that matter at club level. I'm surprised by the comment above about the SRU not releasing Gregor Townsend. Was he sought as attack coach? I thought that Howley was appointed then Townsend as offered a token assistant role, which he understandably turned down. If this is the case, the decision is more understandable. England don't have an attack coach as such, I'm not sure who Ireland's is, but their ability to score backs tries didn't shroud whoever it is in glory, so Howley would almost have got the role by default.

Unless one team or the other gets blatantly figured out, I'm not sure that time will tell us all that much to be honest. We will know how the players / coaches selected got on, but won't be to say that X, Y or Z being different would have yielded a better result.

In defence of Wales' Six Nations, you can make an argument that says that they simply played the hand dealt to them. If you ignore Italy's results (reasonable as this time out they were a level below every other side in the tournament), the tournament was all about teams winning their home games, with England's win in Cardiff being the only away win in the tournament. Had Wales enjoyed Scotland's fixture list, playing the grand slam champions away from home and having three home matches including whipping boys Italy at home in the last match of the tournament, they could easily have finished in second place. If the French are proved to have cheated (hopefully this is still sub judice and won't be brushed under the carpet) in Paris, Wales will be able to feel aggrieved not to have finished a whisker behind Ireland in a position that would justify their Lions representation.

Lastly a lot seems to be being hung on the game between Scotland and Wales at Murrayfield, given the significance of home advantage in the Six Nations, if you're using a one of match as a frame of comparison, I'd suggest that it's more instructive to look at the respective home matches against Ireland. Scotland caught them on the hope and managed to hang on from grim life, while Wales fronted up in the back row battle of the tournament and ran out fairly comfortable winners in the end.


Up to a point I agree with you. However the Wales v Scotland game was a 15 point + defeat for the Taffia, including their much vaunted backrow being invisible in the second half, which according to the boffins who devised the World Rankings is worthy of more points...never mind, it is what it is. It's a brutal tour and they will do exceptionally to win all the games outside of the Tests, first game apart, none are gimme's.

Must apologise for the grammar, summat not quite right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 16:31
Originally posted by Loo fighters Loo fighters wrote:

Like I said, a game of opinions! Both Stander & Billy are more than just cart horses. I believe in taking the game to the opposition rather than reacting to what they do. Obviously there's time when you have to react, I think both are decent over the ball. By playing itoji & kruis you have two athletes who can get around, something that AWJ doesn't do...bit if a plodder.

As you say, all about opinions, just offering my perspective. I see that Stander managed a few turnovers in the Six Nations which flies in the face of what I was saying, but I don't know how he compares to the other options in this regard, I regard Vunipola as a very good tackler, so he would cover Stander somewhat in this regard. If these two are the form six and eight on tour, I hope I'm talked around. One more consideration, is Warburton a good enough lineout forward for this combination to work? I have a feeling that he is, but can't remember. Not having a legitimate six jumper would put pressure on the lineout and make it easy for New Zealand to take dangerous six ball of the top through Kieran Read, which is another plus of having POM in the side.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree re: AWJ. I agree that his work rate is below the other possibles. He's not the player he was, but is still capable of turning back the clock and pulling out big performances. He also brings a wealth of international and Lions experience. His scrummaging is also not to be underestimated. While his stats are almost certainly below the other tourists and two left behind, he produces what I think Stuart Lancaster called "telling interactions", like the odd bone crunching tackle that dislodges the ball or destroys the opposition's momentum, or a big carry at the right time to get his side going forwards. In the context of the "everyone hates Scotland / Gatland bias" discussion, I think it's largely irrelevant as if AWJ didn't go, Launchbury would have done as a couple of us have already said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 16:31
I think, maybe wrongly, that the SRU had no hand in the coaching decisions. Townsend was offered the slot as assistant o Howley, fair enough to him he has just been appointed National Coach so he turns it down. O'Halloran, who has done good things with Scotland's backline probably looked at it and thought, I have plenty to lose and eff all to gain. That said, there's not a lot of obvious alternatives to Howley, which is an indictment of all sorts of stuff....

We will look on the upside, got our own summer tour to think about. Townsend can blood, or not, it's not really clouded by the Lions, so that's a plus. I agree with the need to have a number of good 6N seasons, rather than one half decent one. Toonie has a clean slate so let's see where we go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 16:35
Can't say I rate Warburton's line out capabilities very highly, probably why POM is there. Ideally there would be four targets, three is a minimum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 16:53
Originally posted by OldExile OldExile wrote:

Up to a point I agree with you. However the Wales v Scotland game was a 15 point + defeat for the Taffia, including their much vaunted backrow being invisible in the second half, which according to the boffins who devised the World Rankings is worthy of more points...never mind, it is what it is. It's a brutal tour and they will do exceptionally to win all the games outside of the Tests, first game apart, none are gimme's.

Must apologise for the grammar, summat not quite right.

I'd want a pretty long price on the Lions winning all the buildup games, history (Adriaan Richter's winning try for the Blue Bulls in 1997 still has me losing sleep) and an incredibly tough tour schedule is very much against this happening.

I see that a few people have asked about reserve lists. I assume that the extended squad (reportedly 4 extra players at a cost of £600,000!) is intended to reduce the chance of needing to call up players. I'm not sure what I feel about this. The squad is only three short of the 44 that toured in 2005 and was widely criticised in hindsight for being too big. That squad still required seven additional call ups, so there's a case to me to say that a squad is never going to be big enough to cope with the inevitable injuries, so why not pick one that's the optimal size to build a test team? Given the tour schedule, maybe this is what the coaching team believe that they have done, but I worry that the larger the squad, the tougher it becomes to have a tight knit squad and give everyone a crack of the whip. Saying that, it still means that some players will be involved both midweek and on Saturdays.

I don't ever remember a reserve list being published in the past, nor do I see a lot of point in doing so - why force yourself to predetermine something you don't need to and tie your own hands? If a player gets injured, coaches may wish to bring in a like for like replacement for that player, which might not necessarily be the first name on the reserve list (e.g. Gray would be a more likely like for like replacement for AWJ, while Launchbury would be more likely to be the reserve second row if you had to commit yourself to naming a reserve) or may use it as an opportunity to bring in a player who brings something that they have realised is lacking from the squad. Again, this option wouldn't necessarily be there if the list is predetermined.

My best advice for any player would be to book a holiday to North Island New Zealand! I seem to remember Tom Court being brought in from his jollies and Shane Williams coming across from Japan last time out. If memory serves (you've twice proved that it doesn't always in this thread) Dai Young and Andy Nichol benefited from being in the right place at the right time back in the amateur days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 16:59
Originally posted by OldExile OldExile wrote:

Can't say I rate Warburton's line out capabilities very highly, probably why POM is there. Ideally there would be four targets, three is a minimum.

Or indeed Tipuric (again, I stand to be corrected, but think of him as decent in this regard) if you play Warburton at six, making Vunipola a must at eight.

I'm amazed at how long England managed to get away with only having two and then ironically got found out by Ireland this time out when a third was added.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 18:02
Had quite a good joust on this RoD, enjoyed it. I agree with the need for call ups, as long as it isn't from a short list of Jones, Jenkins, Charteris, Lydiate, Roberts and Cuthbert (apologies if I've missed any obvious ones out.)

What I would really like is for Gatland to define what he would see as a "Success". That way we will be spared a LOT of debate as to what is "failure" - his squad, his call.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 19:47
Lions Team.                    FB.    Scotland
                           3 Quarters.    England
                            Half Backs.    Ireland
                            Front Row.     Ireland/England
                            2nd Row.        Saracens
                            Back Row.      Certainly not Wales
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 20:30
Nichol was called up in 2001, in the professional era. He was a tour guide on the party I was with and we were with him as he heard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 22:15
The less said about Nicol the better, and that's with a Scottish bias!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 23:09
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Only one comment - George North should not be on the plane on player welfare grounds - he's been concussed too often.
The sooner someone takes notice of that the better for him and his post rugby career. Man up? boll_ox.

When was his most recent "episode"? The most recent one I remember was against Leicester, but that's quite a while back now. As far as I can see, the corollary to saying that North shouldn't tour is that World Rugby's protocols and the medical care available is insufficient to safeguard players. I'm not saying that that is or isn't the case, but if it is, it's a massive worry for the future of the game and of the players as individuals.


Unconscious in December vs Leicester.  Wales Online Jan 17 quoted former World Rugby medical supremo

"His (Nodth's) comments have come in for criticism on social media, and former World Rugby medical advisor Dr Barry O’Driscoll believes that while North is entitled to react to the press in any way he wants, he must ensure he is fully aware of the long-term consequences of multiple concussions.

O’Driscoll, who resigned as a medical advisor to the sport’s governing body in 2013 citing the trivialisation of concussion, insists that North is free to decide how he goes on with his career – providing he has been informed of the risks."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2017 at 01:27
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Nichol was called up in 2001, in the professional era. He was a tour guide on the party I was with and we were with him as he heard.

You're right, my brain's inability at joining up the dots fails me again, he was also brought in at a late juncture in 1993. For fear of sidetracking the thread, is it a unique boast to sub in on two separate tours?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2017 at 02:18
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Only one comment - George North should not be on the plane on player welfare grounds - he's been concussed too often.
The sooner someone takes notice of that the better for him and his post rugby career. Man up? boll_ox.

When was his most recent "episode"? The most recent one I remember was against Leicester, but that's quite a while back now. As far as I can see, the corollary to saying that North shouldn't tour is that World Rugby's protocols and the medical care available is insufficient to safeguard players. I'm not saying that that is or isn't the case, but if it is, it's a massive worry for the future of the game and of the players as individuals.


Unconscious in December vs Leicester.  Wales Online Jan 17 quoted former World Rugby medical supremo

"His (Nodth's) comments have come in for criticism on social media, and former World Rugby medical advisor Dr Barry O’Driscoll believes that while North is entitled to react to the press in any way he wants, he must ensure he is fully aware of the long-term consequences of multiple concussions.

O’Driscoll, who resigned as a medical advisor to the sport’s governing body in 2013 citing the trivialisation of concussion, insists that North is free to decide how he goes on with his career – providing he has been informed of the risks."

To borrow from one of Ronnie Barker's better gags in Porridge, if George Nodth's repeated brain traumas do take their toll, at least he could get a job writing for the Western Mail! Wink

Thank you for confirming my understanding, but you didn't address the wider point that I was making. I don't understand why you are suggesting that a player who was concussed more than five months before the plane flies shouldn't be on it on that basis. I'm struggling to phrase a single question that will help me to better understand where you're coming from other than to ask again where World Rugby and the medical profession is going wrong and what should be changed to prevent a scenario that you clearly think is wrong.

I have a huge amount of time for uncle BOD for being as outspoken as he has been over the head trauma problem, but I can't help feeling that he's now served his purpose and is only ever going to be seen as the "lunatic left" and that wheeling him out repeatedly in these cases is only going to make people think that "it's just him banging his drum again". That's not to say that I disagree with anything that he says, just playing the politics of the situation. I've always been very outspoken on what I've perceived as a lack of player welfare and / or medical competence on this forum and in other contexts.

Speaking of which, what is the latest with Uncle BOD's relative's case against Sale and Cudmore's case against ASMCA? Unfortunately we rarely get to hear the conclusion to these things, but they would be enlightening whatever the outcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2017 at 08:29
It's just me and concerns for players such as GN who put their bodies on thre line for our gratification.  I love the game just wish there was more finesse to it rather than the current Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am. I speak from experience of head injuries. Too close to home to be rational.
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