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Leicester Tigers now up to 8 South African players

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marigold View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Leicester Tigers now up to 8 South African players
    Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 20:34
How very sad that the previously British orientated Leicester Tigers, who produced so many England internationals , appear to be following Sale in hoovering up cheap South African imports. Why bother having an Academy?This trend will be detrimental to the future of the England national team and for me is one of the strongest cases for ring fencing the Premiership. With no relegation clubs can take a chance on developing their young players instead of bringing in foreign journeyman to avoid relegation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 21:41
Eddie will pick them anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 22:42
And it’s not as if they are recognised internationals like de Klerk and de Jäger at Sale. Journeymen Saffers aren’t what I want to see in Premiership teams. Quinn’s are closest to me and I can understand Esterhuizen but not Lewies or Green who have their equals in homegrown talent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 09:27
Originally posted by marigold marigold wrote:

How very sad that the previously British orientated Leicester Tigers, who produced so many England internationals , appear to be following Sale in hoovering up cheap South African imports. Why bother having an Academy?This trend will be detrimental to the future of the England national team and for me is one of the strongest cases for ring fencing the Premiership. With no relegation clubs can take a chance on developing their young players instead of bringing in foreign journeyman to avoid relegation.

Ringfencing won't stop this as clubs will still be trying to be as high in the table to qualify for European placings and prize money. 

Former Gloucester owner Ryan Walkinshaw admitted that the development of academy players was "Low down the priority reasons to Ringfence the Premiership" on Twitter a couple of years ago. 

I am surprised in the post Brexit employment/visa world that some of these players qualify for work permits. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 12:20
You raise a good point Richard of the qualification requirements for next season as currently European passport is fine but who knows. IMO I don’t think the AP teams give a monkeys about the RFU or England and Academy’s are only a revenue stream for them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 14:00
This preference for SA players really is depressing. I saw Green play and was impressed. Didn't realise he was yet another SA import. They obviously don't care about nurturing home grown players, just winning at all costs.
I was brought up there and they are good players, but you wouldn't find the reverse happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 20:38
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

This preference for SA players really is depressing. I saw Green play and was impressed. Didn't realise he was yet another SA import. They obviously don't care about nurturing home grown players, just winning at all costs.
I was brought up there and they are good players, but you wouldn't find the reverse happening.


Probably because there isn't the money to attract players to Sth Africa.

Half decent Sth African players can earn a reasonable living in UK/France especially the forwards where they add considerable bulk.

I hope the new rules will eliminate all but the top players from next year on.

Edited by Raider999 - 09 Mar 2021 at 20:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote front5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 22:45
With all the comments in the media currently about race, origin or background. Does the fact that Leicester have recruited new players whom I'm sure they will feel will add to their squad make any reportable news or is it due to the players being South African?

We all need to remember that race, background, origin should be supported and welcomed into our amazing sport, if it is going to add value to the game....

Comments such as X number to South Africans joining Leicester Tigers will only lead to discrimination 


Edited by front5 - 09 Mar 2021 at 22:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 06:19
front5 do you work for a media organisation?

Quite sure the intent of the original post is to point out that more and more Squads in the Premiership are now having an influx of non-English qualified players. It has nothing to do with race/ethnicity or in indeed gender because that's where all this is heading if you think someone pointing out the fact the Team A now has X number of non-EQP will lead to any form of discrimination. In fact to expand on your point, why aren't any Transgender players in the Prem, or women, or unicorns?

From Wikipedia

The Gallagher Premiership is an English professional rugby union competition. The Premiership consists of twelve clubs, and is the top division of the English rugby union system.

The clues being the word English, the more non-English players involved can only make the game in England weaker further down the line. Now remember we voted on whether we wanted to stay in the European Union, turns out we didn't so we've stopped being "European" and become full fledged "British" again which means our laws (the employment ones) don't allow non-Brits too much leeway in the way of work. Therefore these numbers of non-EQPs will start to decrease as the likelihood is they won't get visas to work a professional rugby players. If that is discrimination then go and complain to your local MP because it will be a law that will be enforced. All those SA players who came over here with the Kolpak ruling no longer can, therefore lots of journeymen players will not have the freedom of movement they use to have, that is not discrimination its a fact. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 07:09
I've said it before and I will say it again, the recruitment by any Premiership club of an overseas signing (no matter the country) throws up a series of questions about the Academy structure, the players within and the coaching. 

With the exception of the 'Marque' player (and to me that is some one who has represented their country at the highest level on a good number of occassions), clubs shouldn't need to look outside of this country for their players. 

If they are doing, you must question why. Is it because the Academies are not producing the type of player that clubs require - if not, why not. What are the coaches doing to rectify this? Or is it because the recuitment of players into the academies is off kilter? Again, what is being done to resolve this?

Or is that the Academy player is not being given game time to develop in the Premiership because the clubs recruit overseas players therefore create a Catch 22 of their making?

Hopefully the post Brexit visa environment will cut back on the number of overseas players. It will take some kind of official intervention to do because I fear the clubs won't do it themselves. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 07:33
And along will follow the debate that perhaps Academies should be placed in Championship Teams or Regionally. Where these young players will get more meaningful game time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 08:12
Richard, cpk,
 
It was always my understanding that the RFU "gave" the Clubs x £s to run Academies to produce EQP players. In the early years that happened for instance Leeds Academy turned out decent EQP players at a really high rate who then went on to other Clubs. Then all of a sudden that changed, more Academies started to allow players with no English qualifications backgrounds to join. Now I'm not saying they shouldn't but if you provide funding to help young players develop in to international class players then it should be more swayed in favour of EQP. Take a look at Cameron Redpath, son of a Scottish International, went thru the AASE and Academy system at Sale and played Age Grade Rugby for England, why did he play for England? Because he was classed as eligible having been in the Academy system. He then leaves Sale to join Bath and shows enough class for Scotland to reel him back in. The thing is the SRU spent diddly squat in his development.
 
How do we square that circle? Firstly make it a condition that all English Academies must have 95% EQP, anyone holding a possible dual nationality must be told that if they have change allegiance to another national union that national union must pay some form of compensation to that Academy to re:invest back in to game in England.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 10:15
The problem is that the academies hoover up so much local talent that it's not possible for all of the players to become England internationals.  In fact, it's highly likely that fewer than 50% will even become Premiership regulars.  When you look at guys like Billy Burns, Johnny Williams and Nick Tompkins, none of whom were on Eddie's radar, becoming internationals, you realise just how much depth England actually have.  Redpath is an exception, because he's been in the wider England squad, although with his background it was no surprise that he opted for Scotland.  However, given the way guys like Odogwu and Randall have been treated during the 6N, I wouldn't be surprised to see them lured away by Italy and Wales respectively in the coming months.

And you can't then charge other unions for the player development if that player changes his allegiance - I'm fairly sure there would be anti-competition laws to prevent that.  On the one hand, it might stop England chasing the next Brad Shields (remember him?) or New Zealand pillaging the islanders (or is that an outdated cliche...?) but on the other it would encourage the RFU to persuade the academies to sign up even more talent in case they let one slip through the net.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 10:17
Originally posted by PiffPaff PiffPaff wrote:

Richard, cpk,
 
It was always my understanding that the RFU "gave" the Clubs x £s to run Academies to produce EQP players. In the early years that happened for instance Leeds Academy turned out decent EQP players at a really high rate who then went on to other Clubs. Then all of a sudden that changed, more Academies started to allow players with no English qualifications backgrounds to join. Now I'm not saying they shouldn't but if you provide funding to help young players develop in to international class players then it should be more swayed in favour of EQP. Take a look at Cameron Redpath, son of a Scottish International, went thru the AASE and Academy system at Sale and played Age Grade Rugby for England, why did he play for England? Because he was classed as eligible having been in the Academy system. He then leaves Sale to join Bath and shows enough class for Scotland to reel him back in. The thing is the SRU spent diddly squat in his development.
 
How do we square that circle? Firstly make it a condition that all English Academies must have 95% EQP, anyone holding a possible dual nationality must be told that if they have change allegiance to another national union that national union must pay some form of compensation to that Academy to re:invest back in to game in England.  


The trouble is legally you can't discriminate based upon a player (employees) background/nationality. 

There are two wider questions.

One is why players who have played for one country are then allowed to change to another and secondly why are players like Redpath are escaping the RFU's web?

I can understand pre-18 years old being allowed to change, but once you are 18 you are old enough to understand the implications and to have made a choice and therefore must stick with it. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 10:19
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

The problem is that the academies hoover up so much local talent that it's not possible for all of the players to become England internationals.  In fact, it's highly likely that fewer than 50% will even become Premiership regulars.  

Is there an argument to be made that there are too many academies and if there were fewer it would concentrate the minds on the recruitment into them?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 10:51
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

The problem is that the academies hoover up so much local talent that it's not possible for all of the players to become England internationals.  In fact, it's highly likely that fewer than 50% will even become Premiership regulars.  


Is there an argument to be made that there are too many academies and if there were fewer it would concentrate the minds on the recruitment into them?






It would probably mean less disillusioned young players giving up the game after they have had their expectations raised then are dumped as they don't quite make the grade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 11:20
Mark W-J
I can't agree with your assertion that "less than 50% of Academy players will become Premiership regulars" Think you need to shift the decimal point a notch. My guesstimate would be more like less than 5%!
I'm going back several years now to when I was DoR at a Level 5 club in the Midlands - our better 16/17 year olds were hoovered up every season by Worcester, Leicester or Wasps who had around 50 youngsters in their academies. At this time they received approx £3.5k per youngster each year from the RFU giving annual income of circa £175k to fund the coaching and development programmes (1 Of these clubs actually tried to invoice the parents of these players for the £3.5k - how do I know this? Because the mother came to a committee meeting begging the club to pay it because she couldn't afford to - yeah I know - scandalous!) 
Most of these kids (95% if my assumption above is correct) don't make the grade and the sense of rejection sees most disappear from the game rather than continue to play at a level that their competence merits. I don't think clubs generally believe their academies are a key to their future success, it's just a box-ticking and fund raising exercise
This is clearly historical info and I don't know how it's run in today's world but comments on here suggest their will be less and less opportunities for our home bred youngsters to make it to Premiership level



Edited by Thatbloke - 10 Mar 2021 at 11:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 12:17
In South Africa they have a very competitive schools rugby system Every year they have inter provincial competitions and the big clubs like Blue Bulls send scouts to sign players up.
I presume some of these players get signed up, play a bit, realise that they probably won't make it to the first team and come here. Others come here for the money after a few years at top level. Some go to Japan.
So you have a surplus of good, motivated players who want to earn more money.
We have clubs who want the complete article, much like the Association Football clubs. They want to win and training youngsters is obviously expensive and a total drag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 12:37
However, the RFU pay them to train yongsters.
Of course it does not help if Englad bring in foreign and legue players as stop gap solutions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 14:49
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Mark W-J
I can't agree with your assertion that "less than 50% of Academy players will become Premiership regulars" Think you need to shift the decimal point a notch. My guesstimate would be more like less than 5%!

I think you're probably right.  I was basing that on 10-12 'senior' academy players in each club, but looking at a couple of websites they seem to have 16-17 players listed - and of course that doesn't include those who are in the system but not yet on a full academy contract.

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