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Ironman View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: League Champions Cup
    Posted: 15 Dec 2009 at 12:06
If there is a thread on the site explaining this in detail, could you please direct me to it.
 
I would like to know:
 
a) Have dates been set for the Semi-finals and final?
 
b) Are the Finals played at Twickenham - all on the same day?
 
c) Do the teams winning National 3 SW play off against the National 3 London in the semi-final?
 
d) I assume one team will play at home in the semi-final, but how exactly is this determined - League wins, final points tally etc?
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Fat Albert View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2009 at 17:58
a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 08:24
I suspect that the Level 5 semis will be arranged in a similar manner to the promotion playoff games i.e. National 3 North and National 3 Midlands in one, National 3 London & SE and National 3 South West in the other.  Team with better record would get home advantage.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 13:10
Fat Albert and Fix Sec
 
Thanks for the information. The only question I have left is determining the best record for ground advantgage in the semi-final. I assume it would be total points scored, and if equal then
points difference.
i  wasn't sure if the RFU had a different method because there can be an unequal number of teams in the leagues, e.g. National 2 South with Mounts Bay dropping out.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 08:26
Probably the same way that home advantage is decided for the promotion playoffs (3rd promotion place between two runners up): match points scored, folled by points difference will usually settle it. 
 
I take you point about uneven leagues - that is only applicable at National 2 (as far as I am aware).  National 2 South has a disadvantage in that their teams will play two less games this season.  As it stands at the moment
    National 2 South Ealing (13 games played) 55 points +204 points difference
    National 2 North Macclesfield (14 games played) 55 points, +202 points difference
makes it moot, but this will not necessarily continue through the season.
 
I would have thought that average points per game / average points difference per game would be the fairest way to go.  If I get time, I will see if there was a similar situation at the end of last season lower down the pyramid.


Edited by FixSec - 17 Dec 2009 at 08:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 10:29
Thanks again Fix Sec.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 13:19
Hmm.  Found my mistake...
 
National 2 South, Ealing, 55 points, +204 pd, 4.23 pts per game
National 2 North, Macclesfield, 56 points, +207 pd, 4.00 pts per game
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Buck View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2009 at 20:36
Originally posted by FixSec FixSec wrote:

Probably the same way that home advantage is decided for the promotion playoffs (3rd promotion place between two runners up): match points scored, folled by points difference will usually settle it. 
 
I take you point about uneven leagues - that is only applicable at National 2 (as far as I am aware).  National 2 South has a disadvantage in that their teams will play two less games this season.  As it stands at the moment
    National 2 South Ealing (13 games played) 55 points +204 points difference
    National 2 North Macclesfield (14 games played) 55 points, +202 points difference
makes it moot, but this will not necessarily continue through the season.
 
I would have thought that average points per game / average points difference per game would be the fairest way to go.  If I get time, I will see if there was a similar situation at the end of last season lower down the pyramid.


Leagues administered by the NCA work on points then matches won then points difference.
An example of this can be found in the current N2N table. Kendal are above Rugby Lions by virtue of games won whilst the Lions have the better points difference.
 
How they are going to workout the home advangate for the playoff match this year is another matter Tongue


Edited by Buck - 21 Dec 2009 at 20:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2009 at 11:47
Thank you for the information, Buck.  I was aware that the "points, then matches won" formula applied to the Premiership. I did not know it also extended down to Levels 3 and 4 (National 1 and National 2).  I assume, then, that it also applies at Level 2 (Championship). 
Also applies at Level 5
 
National 3 London
Dorking 14 9 0 5 243 318 -75 1 37 0
Havant 14 8 0 6 261 295 -34 5 37 0


Edited by FixSec - 24 Dec 2009 at 12:04
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Ironman View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2010 at 18:09
Looks like we were all wrong in how the RFU would decide on the home semi-finalists.
 
From the Jersey rugby site:
 

Coach Ben Harvey

Coach Ben Harvey

JERSEY Rugby Club’s hopes of a Twickenham finale to top their superb season have been given a great lift with a home draw in the Champions Cup semi-final.

Twelve points clear in National III South East – and having already played and beaten their nearest rivals twice – they now know that winning the championship title would put them into a semi-final at St Peter against the champions of National III South West, most probably the powerful Taunton RFC.

Taunton, like Jersey in the east, are runaway leaders in the west and enjoy a 13-point lead over their nearest rivals Old Patesians, who have a game in hand. Taunton have won all their 16 games to date, while Jersey have won all bar one, their opening fixture away to Bracknell.

Somerset club Taunton, now unbeaten for 36 games, have an imposing home record, as do Jersey, so the home tie, provisionally scheduled for Saturday, 17 April is a big advantage for players hoping to give Jersey RFC their first ever match at the headquarters of the Rugby Football Union.

Coach Ben Harvey, no doubt about it, will demand that thoughts of semi-final and Twickenham final are banished until the league – and the greater prize of promotion to National II – is achieved.

Article posted on 19th January, 2010 - 2.58pm

From the Jersey site:_
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2010 at 20:46

How do they 'know' they're even going to win the league?
a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2010 at 21:07
The current regulations governing the Level 5 Champions Cup are on the RFU Website - link below. They are in Appendix 4.
 
 
Basically they say that the semi-finals are will be on a regional basis : N v M and SW v L&SE.
The date is to be the Saturday or Sunday of Week 34 (April 24-25).
 
The venue is decided by a draw, arranged by the Committee seven days after the completion of the preceding round. (I believe the Committee is Competions Sub-committee of the RFU but I could not understand what is meant by "the preceding round".)
 
The regulations then go onto say that if a Channel Island team is drawn at home, then the semi-final will be played on the mainland unless both teams agree otherwise.
 
 

Although 3 of the 4 Divisions have clear leaders at this stage, I think it very unlikely that the RFU would have been in contact with any club at this early stage to discuss venues.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2010 at 23:02

  -Thanks Maroon - that does see to clear it up.

 
I don't expect the RFU would have been in touch with any club re venues, but what could have happened is that the RFU  made the draw, with the winner of National 3 London &SE drawn at home, and someone at Jersey not being aware of the rule - as indeed many of us were not until you pointed us in the right direction - and took it that they would be playing at home, if of course they win the league.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2010 at 09:11
So who is your money on to win the National 3 title then ?.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2010 at 09:20

Maroon

the 'preceeding round' reference is a hangover from the national cup regulations from which these have been 'cut & pasted', this will imply larger squads for the Champions Cup, unfortunately the appendix does not state what that squad size will be, as I remember it used to be 22 for levels 3 & 4 and 20 for levels 5 & 6 but who knows!

disappointing that a trip to a holiday destination has been ruled out, I'd of thought squads/clubs would have been doubly keen to visit at that time of year, a. to have a holiday and b. to to have a crack at the foreign legion on 'home' ground :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2010 at 09:33
Originally posted by Fat Albert Fat Albert wrote:

disappointing that a trip to a holiday destination has been ruled out, I'd of thought squads/clubs would have been doubly keen to visit at that time of year, a. to have a holiday and b. to to have a crack at the foreign legion on 'home' ground :)

It's not ruled out but both teams will have to agree to play at the offshore venue and the offshore club will pick up all the travelling costs of the visiting team!  As I read it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2010 at 09:41

technically you're correct Chris, practically? will you give up home advantage?

I watched the highlights of the Jersey-OAs game (they're kind enough to show the highlights on their site), seems to me that OAs missed a bunch penalty chances including one from inside the 22 in front of the posts Shocked

small margins eh!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2010 at 09:57
Originally posted by Fat Albert Fat Albert wrote:

I watched the highlights of the Jersey-OAs game (they're kind enough to show the highlights on their site), seems to me that OAs missed a bunch penalty chances including one from inside the 22 in front of the posts Shocked

I have been looking at those video clips purely out of interest! Big smile

No you are right if I was given the chance to swing that Home advantage my way I'd take it.... Second choice play on neutral ground.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2010 at 10:03
Originally posted by prop idol prop idol wrote:

So who is your money on to win the National 3 title then ?.

I think it's still a bit early for this one just yet!  Jersey and Ampthill seen to have it pretty much in the bag to get to the League Championship games, but with 10 or so games to go It's never over until the Fat Lady sings....

Taunton and Morley both still have work to do so we will have to wait and see and for us teams like 'Old Pats' deserve a lot of respect and I'm sure they will do all they can to pip us at the post....

Good luck to everyone......


PS Taunton have drawn Bridgy in the Somerset Cup Semi-Final



Edited by VFRRider - 28 Jan 2010 at 10:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2010 at 10:15
Just for a bit of fun lets look at the current top two teams from each sub division of National 3


Note: The Bonus Points really have an effect on positions

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