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SimonTheAssessor View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion

Joined: 12 May 2012
Location: Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 288
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 10:37
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

It seems strange that the law makers, and refs, are obsessional about the tackle area and making it a "fair contest," they are very picky on not-straight lineout throws, yet the scrum has generally become a non-contest.
It is the players and coaches and IRB Law Makers that want to make the breakdown (tackle-ruck) a fair contest not the referees !
Referees only apply the framework of the Laws (when clear& obvious and material outcomes) using judgement and experience. The National Panel and Groups work hard to achieve consistent interpretations and apply the Laws as directed in RFU Guidance and in line with the agreed protocols between Panel/Groups and the DoRs/Coaches.
In any match I assess, 60-75% of the 20 or so PKs in a match are for tackle or ruck offences (I check the stats on my reports for last season). Hence we and the Referee Coaches work hard with the referees to get positive preventative management established 'early doors'.

As for the scrum (and looking at my assessment evidence sheets), certainly most of the Nat3 SW Refs I watched last season managed, and then penalised early engagement, early shove, illegal FR scrum bindings and in a few cases not straight by the #9 (FK of course). In some matches, in the post match de-brief I did ask some referees if they thought every feed was 'credible', usually when they had gone far side to sort out FR binds !   
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

Even if a team have the opposition going back at a rate of knots, the scrum half has put the ball in the second row and they have a reasonable chance of retaining it. 
The refs I watch penalise for early shove, if it is before the  ball is thrown-in
I think you enjoy the game more if you don't know the rules. Anyway, you're on the same wavelength as the referees. Jonathan Davies,
A Question of Sport BBC TV (1995)
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Stalwart View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner

Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Location: Penzance
Status: Offline
Points: 1654
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 12:14
I completely accept that is the guidelines refs get that are the problem - my post did come across as blaming refs - and it wasn't meant to be like that. It is refs who are on the front line and so are the ones we see allowing the vast majority of put-ins at scrums to be crooked. I notice your post, Simon, "admits" that penalties for the crooked feed were given "in a few cases." Considering the large number of scrums in every game it begs the question, "Why only a few cases?"
I don't have a problem with penalties/free kicks being given for illegal binding/early engage etc - but I reckon it has not been improved by crouch, touch, pause etc - so glad that the rule makers are trying to address that.
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womble View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion

Joined: 23 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 304
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 17:45
It was midway through the season
we were just outside the four
and although I know we won it
I can't recall the score.

But there's one thing I remember
and to me it says a lot
about the men who front the scrum -
the men we call "the props".

We won a lineout near half way
the backs went on a run
the flankers quickly ripped the ball
and second phase was won.

Another back then crashed it up
and drove towards the line
another maul was duly set
to attack it one more time.

The forwards pushed and rolled that maul
They got the tough set the ball up to a tee
the last man in played tight head prop
and wore the number "3"

The ball was pushed in to his hands
he held it like a beer
then simply dropped to score the try -
his first in 15 years.

Then later, once the game was done
he sat amidst his team
he led the song and called himself
the try scoring machine.

But it wasn't till the night wore on
that the truth was finally told
just two beers in, he'd scored the try
and also kicked the goal.

At 6 o'clock the try was scored
by barging through their pack
he carried two men as he scored
while stepping 'round a back.

By seven he'd run twenty yards
out sprinting their quick men
then beat the last line of defence
with a "Jonah Lomu" fend.

By eight he'd run from near half way
and thrown a cut out pass
then looped around and run again
no-one was in his class.

By nine he'd run from end to end
his teammates stood in awe
he chipped and caught it on the full
then swan dived as he scored.

By ten he'd Huckleberryly Pear a dozen beers
but still his eyes did glisten
as he told the story of "that try"
to anyone who'd listen.

His chest filled up, as he spoke,
his voice was filled with pride
he felt for sure he would be named
the captain of that side.

By nights end he was by himself
still talking on his own
the club was shut, the lights were out
his mates had all gone home.

And that's why I love my front row -
they simply never stop
and why I always lend an ear
when a try's scored by a prop
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Asterix View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular

Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Location: Liverpool
Status: Offline
Points: 147
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 09:12
Loving your work Womble Clap
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