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Bristolfan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bristolfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 17:36
For the record, I don't see ring fencing as the best option currently, I just see it as better than the scenario we have currently and will have for a few years, where clubs come down and go back up comfortably. What ring fencing would stop though is another London Welsh scenario, where a club spends out of their control in order to get into the premiership, gets battered every week and goes bankrupt off the back of it, that isn't healthy for any club but is looking like the only valid way for championship clubs to compete with the premiership club that comes down.

What I'd much prefer to see is the bottom placed premiership club go in a play off with the top placed championship club, then we'd be able to see if the club coming up would add any thigg to to the premiership or if they'd become another Irish of last season or us of the season before
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EverOptimistic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 18:10
Another Bris supporter here.  I hate the idea of ring fencing. 

What I would like to see is a continuation of promotion/relegation but with transparent promotion criteria, agreed by all parties.  And these should include the presentation of a  business case which showed the viability of the club over the next, say, 3 years,regardless of the league the club is in. And this should be audited by an independent body. (And every club in the Prem should have to meet the same criteria). 

 Champ clubs who topped the league but couldn't meet the criteria wouldn't be promoted but would be given a financial reward to help them meet the criteria for the following season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 18:46
< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">
Originally posted by Trailfinder Trailfinder wrote:

How about give the parachute payment to the team that wins the Championship?

A `ROCKET` payment for going up !.
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teambarnham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 19:48
Originally posted by JamboBris JamboBris wrote:

Does anyone on here honestly think that there is a team in the league that has a remote chance of topping Falcons, Warriors or Bris over the course of a full league season? I would be in favour of expanding the league personally, all 12 teams in the premiership at present would walk the league if they were relegated next year which does no-one any favours either.


Let’s consider Bristol’s league positions in the Premiership.
Currently 10th.
Relegated as 12th in 2016/17 season where they soundly proved that having shed loads of cash doesn’t mean your team will gel.
Relegated in 2008/2009. I seem to recall Nottingham putting 60 points on Bristol at one stage (not that long ago)
If Bristol are that good why can’t they get into the Prem and stay there? No team has a god given right to be in the Premiership.
And if Bristol are that amazing why did it take them 5 years to get back into the Prem where they were promptly relegated?!
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 20:27
The sole reason the relegated Prem team invariably go up again is the disparity in the funding. The parachute payment should be scrapped, it's in effect a reward for failure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 20:40
Originally posted by Stalwart Stalwart wrote:

The sole reason the relegated Prem team invariably go up again is the disparity in the funding. The parachute payment should be scrapped, it's in effect a reward for failure.


Or more accurately, an insurance policy paid for by the Premiership club bs, to ensure they can afford their Premiership squads, and bounce back up with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 20:42
Originally posted by JamboBris JamboBris wrote:

Does anyone on here honestly think that there is a team in the league that has a remote chance of topping Falcons, Warriors or Bris over the course of a full league season? I would be in favour of expanding the league personally, all 12 teams in the premiership at present would walk the league if they were relegated next year which does no-one any favours either.
This is a great post. Jersey beat Briz at their place last season and Wuss at St Peters and narrowly lost away. They were robbed oop North and gave Falcons a decent game away. Jersey will probably never be a premiership side and probably have a natural level in Nat 1 but along with Blues, Pirates, Knights et al imo add a fair bit to club rugby so give them a chance to shine.  I almost forgot Jersey beat Irish twice last time they came down.

Edited by corporalcarrot - 20 Jan 2019 at 20:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 21:19
Originally posted by EverOptimistic EverOptimistic wrote:

Another Bris supporter here.  I hate the idea of ring fencing. 

What I would like to see is a continuation of promotion/relegation but with transparent promotion criteria, agreed by all parties.  And these should include the presentation of a  business case which showed the viability of the club over the next, say, 3 years,regardless of the league the club is in. And this should be audited by an independent body. (And every club in the Prem should have to meet the same criteria). 

 Champ clubs who topped the league but couldn't meet the criteria wouldn't be promoted but would be given a financial reward to help them meet the criteria for the following season.

What's the point of a business case when the majority of the Premiership clubs are racking up debts and reliant on a Sugar Daddy who could pull out at any time? In that situation why would the Championship club have to be in a better state that the existing clubs?

Don't forget your Bristol history and how it all nearly went wrong for you... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 21:38
If anyone really wants to get their dander up, read Colin Boag's wretched opinion piece in this week's Rugby Paper. He goes after the Championship clubs in general, and Nottingham by name with very heavy allusions to some of Ben Ward's comments recently as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bristolfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 22:29
Originally posted by teambarnham teambarnham wrote:

Originally posted by JamboBris JamboBris wrote:

Does anyone on here honestly think that there is a team in the league that has a remote chance of topping Falcons, Warriors or Bris over the course of a full league season? I would be in favour of expanding the league personally, all 12 teams in the premiership at present would walk the league if they were relegated next year which does no-one any favours either.


Let’s consider Bristol’s league positions in the Premiership.
Currently 10th.


Relegated as 12th in 2016/17 season where they soundly proved that having shed loads of cash doesn’t mean your team will gel.
Relegated in 2008/2009. I seem to recall Nottingham putting 60 points on Bristol at one stage (not that long ago)
If Bristol are that good why can’t they get into the Prem and stay there? No team has a god given right to be in the Premiership.
And if Bristol are that amazing why did it take them 5 years to get back into the Prem where they were promptly relegated?!
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that....


This isn't about Bristol being 'amazing' or anything, nobody is claiming we are any good.

It's about creating competitive rugby in England. We currently have a system where it is basically ring fenced, with one team coming down for a season in the championship only to go straight back up. This year irish will go up, next year it'll be whoever gets relegated in May, and the cycle will continue. Surely what we all want is what's best for the English game and the current system isn't doing that.

Look at Ireland or instance, they have ring fencing and all three provinces are through to the knockouts of the champions Cup, between them only Fielding 3 no Irish players and look at what Ireland are doing internationally... Isn't that what we want for England? Maybe ring fencing isn't the answer, but the current system definitely needs looking in to
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 22:44
Originally posted by Bristolfan Bristolfan wrote:

Originally posted by teambarnham teambarnham wrote:

Originally posted by JamboBris JamboBris wrote:

Does anyone on here honestly think that there is a team in the league that has a remote chance of topping Falcons, Warriors or Bris over the course of a full league season? I would be in favour of expanding the league personally, all 12 teams in the premiership at present would walk the league if they were relegated next year which does no-one any favours either.


Let’s consider Bristol’s league positions in the Premiership.
Currently 10th.


Relegated as 12th in 2016/17 season where they soundly proved that having shed loads of cash doesn’t mean your team will gel.
Relegated in 2008/2009. I seem to recall Nottingham putting 60 points on Bristol at one stage (not that long ago)
If Bristol are that good why can’t they get into the Prem and stay there? No team has a god given right to be in the Premiership.
And if Bristol are that amazing why did it take them 5 years to get back into the Prem where they were promptly relegated?!
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that....


This isn't about Bristol being 'amazing' or anything, nobody is claiming we are any good.

It's about creating competitive rugby in England. We currently have a system where it is basically ring fenced, with one team coming down for a season in the championship only to go straight back up. This year irish will go up, next year it'll be whoever gets relegated in May, and the cycle will continue. Surely what we all want is what's best for the English game and the current system isn't doing that.

Look at Ireland or instance, they have ring fencing and all three provinces are through to the knockouts of the champions Cup, between them only Fielding 3 no Irish players and look at what Ireland are doing internationally... Isn't that what we want for England? Maybe ring fencing isn't the answer, but the current system definitely needs looking in to
 

Oh dear...you wrote this just as I was finishing my letter to the editor of the Rugby Paper per the below:

Until recently, I was firmly against Ring Fencing the Premiership. However, Colin Boag’s latest, well reasoned opinion piece advocating a minimum five year moratorium on promotion relegation as ‘the sensible option now’ struck a cord and changed my mind. In particular, he made excellent points to demonstrate the lunacy of continuing promotion/relegation such as: the poor current league position of some Championship clubs who have the audacity to someday aspire to promotion; the meager crowds at the virtually untelevised, poorly promoted, insanely scheduled Championship; the way that players getting game time in the Championship is detrimental to not only its own players, but the entire England set up; unruly owners speaking out in the media; and finally, the success of the Premiership clubs financially. Never a more convincing argument for ringfencing have I heard!

However, upon further reflection, I don’t think he has taken his argument far enough. I think that Colin would be happy ringfencing with the 13 current P-share holding clubs, but he’s not been bold enough! Surely, Scotland, with its two Champions cup qualifying teams has given us an unbeatable model for club rugby, so let’s try to move the ringfence a bit to get there. We must be bold to fix English Rugby!

So, it should be obvious that London Irish being in the Championship this season should never be given another opportunity. Down to 12. If we consider Colin’s point about poor standings Newcastle are looking ripe for the drop, so that’s them gone too to get us to 11. Worcester have been in the Premiership for years, and sure they’ve been to the Challenge Cup Semi-Finals, but they’ve never finished higher than 8th. Same logic applies to Bristol – gone. See, we’re already down to 9!

Now let’s move on to the excellent point about poor crowds! Sale vs. Northhampton got only 5290 punters through the gate, only 300 more than the Bedford Blues vs. Ampthill friendly on Boxing Day. That’s Sale and Northampton gone. I mean, if we’re happy to ringfence out Yorkshire, who cares about Manchester too?

Next we have the point about players getting game time in the Championship instead of signing with the Premiership clubs to sit on the bench and play A-league games. That makes me feel like teams using lots of players that were developed in the Championship is almost like cheating. We can’t have cheaters in the Premiership, so let’s get rid of all of the teams who took in more than two Championship players this year: wave goodbye to Leicester Tigers and Wasps. Down to just five, almost to the promised land.

We can’t have any owners who might want to speak up about the fortunes of their clubs, so I’m afraid that means Bath will be jettisoned after Bruce Craig talked about ringfencing recently. Ironic I know, but it’s for the good of the game.

So we have a final four of worthy, virtuous clubs: Harlequins, Exeter, Gloucester and Saracens. But wait, I believe that Colin pointed out that the CVC was interested in buying into the Premiership only because it was so successful already, so let’s check into that aspect. Gloucester, Harlequins, and Saracens all had multi-million pound losses last year, so that’s them out. Leaving us with…oh dear. We seem to have only one club that meets all of Colin’s criteria – the 2010/11 Championship winners Exeter. We’ve done one better than the Scots, and now we can pour all of our money into the Exeter Chiefs, who will also represent England internationally! I personally can see no drawbacks to this new, ringfenced utopia.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rinkadink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 23:43
Originally posted by Trailfinder Trailfinder wrote:

How about give the parachute payment to the team that wins the Championship?


Agreed, shared out on a sliding scale over the top clubs after reinstating the play-offs in two season's time. Promote top this season, no relegation, use parachute payment to reward 2-6th. Promote two from N1. Same format the following season promoting top again (premiership goes to 14), share the parachute payment and promote from N1 again bringing championship also to 14. Third year bring back play offs but no promotion to provide stability and reward the successful clubs via play offs. During this season have independent audit to advise for the upcoming new TV deals with the potential to allow championship to come under PRL control and RFU take over the running of the amateur game, championship/prem2 should aim to be fully professional and aim for possibility of 2 up 2 down, one automatic promotion and relegation and the other via play-offs.

Media would love to call this ring fencing but patently it's not just a temporary measure to grow the professional game in this country. Currently we could all be doing better and the RFU have failed with their initial goal of the championship to produce fully professional league and have seen several clubs suffer such as London Welsh and Plymouth under their watch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 09:09
Odd numbered leagues are no fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 10:45
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Odd numbered leagues are no fun.

National One was great fun!

Ah - I see what you mean. Yes, I agree totally that any structure where one team has a week off every week are less than desirable. In theory a league works best if everyone has played the same number of matches. We all know there are occasional times when the matches get out of step due to weather conditions (and this season, hotel availability), but building into the structure an unevenness is generally undesirable.

Besides - a 15 team league takes as many weekends to play as a 16 team one, and a 13 team league as many as a 14 team one.


Edited by OldNick - 21 Jan 2019 at 10:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trailfinder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 12:42
I still haven't heard a valid argument against reducing the Premiership to 10 teams. People always sing the virtues of ringfencing in relation to player welfare but surely fewer matches is the only solution. The Premiership Cup should go too and the club's should manage their squads better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rinkadink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 13:03
Originally posted by Trailfinder Trailfinder wrote:

I still haven't heard a valid argument against reducing the Premiership to 10 teams. People always sing the virtues of ringfencing in relation to player welfare but surely fewer matches is the only solution. The Premiership Cup should go too and the club's should manage their squads better.


Because the championship would also have to follow suit and bin 4 clubs to ND1? Removing cup and reducing teams would be way too few matches. Even with 10 and keeping the cup there would be less money in the game, less money for the clubs less professional players, less professional clubs and likely less supporters and TV viewership. If you expand to 14 and ditch the cup you have less games than we do now and a chance to not play in the six nations window for example (although we could use breaks elsewhere). Seems pretty obvious solution and without doubt expands/is good for the game.

No response to my previous either? Hmm, you give the impression of posting in bad faith here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 13:34
Originally posted by gerg_861 gerg_861 wrote:

I personally can see no drawbacks to this new, (single club) ringfenced utopia.
 
Dear Sir
 
It was with regret that I read your churlish reply to the excellently written and balanced article in the Rugby Paper.
 
You fail to understand your place amongst rugby's elite. Ealing, for example, are small beer and rely on third party funding (a few Premiership clubs do so but only 11). London Scottish receive funding from SRU I understand - can't have them. As to the historic elite, Bedford have a sloping pitch and Coventry have some former National 1 players in their teams (only a few clubs such as Saracens and Bath have that).
 
Frankly, you need to get a grip. Premiership Rugby Ltd, Professional Lawyers Association and, in the future, CVC have the efficient RFU by the short and curlies. We are, as the Highland Tinker, on the verge of a great breakthrough.
 
Yours faithfully
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trailfinder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 13:50
Forgive my lack of decorum, messaging between stops on the tube. I actually agree with your points, I meant meant increasing the Championship to 14 by reducing the Premiership to 10. Not convinced that the Premiership would be worse off in the medium term by reducing the number of games. They could trim their squads for a start plus their CVC business model implies selling the media rights internationally as the great new revenue source.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EverOptimistic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 13:50
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by EverOptimistic EverOptimistic wrote:

Another Bris supporter here.  I hate the idea of ring fencing. 

What I would like to see is a continuation of promotion/relegation but with transparent promotion criteria, agreed by all parties.  And these should include the presentation of a  business case which showed the viability of the club over the next, say, 3 years,regardless of the league the club is in. And this should be audited by an independent body. (And every club in the Prem should have to meet the same criteria). 

 Champ clubs who topped the league but couldn't meet the criteria wouldn't be promoted but would be given a financial reward to help them meet the criteria for the following season.

What's the point of a business case when the majority of the Premiership clubs are racking up debts and reliant on a Sugar Daddy who could pull out at any time? In that situation why would the Championship club have to be in a better state that the existing clubs?

Don't forget your Bristol history and how it all nearly went wrong for you... 

That's exactly my point.  All clubs would have to meet the same criteria.  And no Bris supporters are in danger of forgetting their recent history.  We get reminded enough by those on this forum for a start! Confused

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elegia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 14:15
another Bristol supporter against ringfencing here
why should any team be denied the chance to reach the top tier?
 
it's only rearing it's head so much now as there is no obvious fall guy team in the premiership so the "bigger" teams are all getting worried
all these comments you hear from former players saying the premiership needs b***, or the premiership needs Leicester is a nonsense.
 
the championship needs better funding, let's start there
this is why events unnerve me
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