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Topic ClosedForward Passes - Event Date: 29 Dec 2013 - 29 Mar 2014

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Brizzer View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Calendar Event: Forward Passes
    Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 10:43
I have read an article by Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times this morning about the forward pass rules and how they have been changed to allow for the momentum of the passing playing (taking into account velocity). In other words, the ball is collected by the receiving player in front of where the passing player released the ball, so even though the ball may have been passed backwards, it is, in effect, a forward pass.

He goes on to say that the officials need to look at whether the passing players hands move forwrds or backwards in determining if the pass was forward or not.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that this rule had been in for some time now and Mr Jones is somewhat behind the times, but it did get me thinking.

Does anyone else have any problems with the forward pass rules as they stand? Personally, i think they have got this one right and although the odd one is missed, generally, it is policed quite well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 11:04
Rules are already fine, imagine if a player is running forward put throws it over his head backwards but because he is moving forward lands ahead of where he threw it, imaging how crazy that would be if it was a forward pass, the rules are fine p
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 11:06
I played over 30 years ago and at least effectively this was the law then.  I thought that the wording was clarified some while ago probably as a response to TV slo mo which allowed us to see legal passes being collected in front of the point from which they were passed.  For me the laws work and always have done and any changes have been directed to making the wording fit what has always been acceptable on the field
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 11:26
Apparently, it was an Aussie coach who drew lines across a training pitch and then got players to run passing drills at various speeds and passing various distances.

Looking at where the ball was passed, compared to where it was collected, confirmed what everybody already knew, but proved to be a very visual demonstration.

I agree, as long as the passing hands are not seen to be moving forward, then the pass id fine in my book....it still doesn't stop half of the crowd howling 'forward pass' during the match mind you
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 13:02
What are you doing mentioning Aussies on a day like today? Have you no sensitivity?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 13:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 13:37
Um ... Is it only me that thinks every one of those passes in the demo should have been adjudged forward???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 14:17
The law on a forward pass has not been changed at all. Which is to say that if the ball travels towards the opposition dead ball line then it is a forward pass. It says nothing about relative motion, momentum or direction of the hands. If the interpretation is different than they should change the wording of the law which is, unusually, fairly unambiguous.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 20:43
Originally posted by bigmac bigmac wrote:

Um ... Is it only me that thinks every one of those passes in the demo should have been adjudged forward???

I was not aware of the point that if the ball is not going forward at the point of release it is not forward.
How you can see that at normal speed and no replays.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 21:55
Now my mechanical physics days are long behind me (and to be honest it was never my forte) but from some vague memory tells me that surely if a balls direction of travel takes its final position in front of the point of release then absent another force being applied after release it was always travelling 'forwards' (I have assumed that air resistance and gravity would not make it it go forwardBig smile).  This is the case even if the direction of force applied by the players release is 'backwards' not 'forwards' (in reality the direction of force will be predominantly sideways but will also have an element of backwards force) as the ball will not change direction on the horizontal plane (except for the effect of air resistance - I have discounted air resisistance causing a 'swerve' effect as seen in football but maybe someone will say there is evidence for this) as the 'forward' force of momentum is greater than the 'backward' force of the throw.  It does not start going backwards and then change direction.

In the vertical plane the external force of gravity will make it drop to the floor in a loop (as will to a lesser extent, air resistance).

The IRB Laws state that;

A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

So can a ball be thrown or passed backwards if it is always travelling forwards?  That is the current interpretation which in effect is now not concerned with the direction the ball travels from a throw or pass but the direction of force applied from a throw or pass.  A literal approuch would argue that is not allowed by the current wording of the laws, a purposive approcah would argue it is.

Bit of a difficult one as if that is not the interpretation we need to fundamentally change the game as it is currently played (as the IRB video shows) but it is a minefield for the ref and he will always be crucified by supporters if they think it has gone forward.

Happy for anybody more learned in physics to point out I am talking snakefruits!


Edited by donnyladinsheffield - 29 Dec 2013 at 21:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 22:23
Originally posted by Stantheman Stantheman wrote:

What are you doing mentioning Aussies on a day like today? Have you no sensitivity?


Fair point, apologies, but they have brought it upon themselves...no backbone you know!...Master Fred must be turning in his grave and i won't even start on what Cowdrey would be saying!....anyway, back to the forward passing (or not depending on your knowledge of physics it would seem).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 22:28
Donnylad

That makes perfect sense to me and I enjoyed reading it.  I am off down the shops to see if I can get a life.


Edited by Stantheman - 29 Dec 2013 at 22:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 22:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 22:36
Originally posted by donnyladinsheffield donnyladinsheffield wrote:



Happy for anybody more learned in physics to point out I am talking snakefruits!

You lost me at "mechanical physics". Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 22:55
if you were running at 20 mph, to pass the ball backwards at an angle of say 45 degrees you would have to pass the ball quicker than 40 mph (world record is about 48mph from a standing start) so I guess we need to give up playing or blow every pass as forward!! See other thread about scrum re sets lol
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 17:22
Watched a replay of Leeds "try" against Rotherham earlier in season. Everyone in the ground saw it forward apart from ref and touch judge. The replay confirms it.
The officiating not so good in this league
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 17:45
Originally posted by womble womble wrote:

if you were running at 20 mph, to pass the ball backwards at an angle of say 45 degrees you would have to pass the ball quicker than 40 mph (world record is about 48mph from a standing start) so I guess we need to give up playing or blow every pass as forward!! See other thread about scrum re sets lol

Good explanation (as was the pass over your own head explanation above). I understand your point about ruling every pass forward, to me it illustrates the work the IRB need to do on the law book - how many other sports have laws that couldn't possibly be enforced? IMO referees would come in for a lot less criticism if the laws were clearer and didn't require interpretation.

When it comes to forward passes, I guess that the law should be reworded to say that passes should be rules forward if they increase the forward momentum of the ball.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 18:33
Yes, good wording ROD. It should reflect the action of the player passing the ball rather than where the ball actually ends up i.e. the motion of the passer is to pass the ball backwards or flat rather than forwards and we come back to the motion of the hands. Now, I am not a referee (God forbid), but I bet that if you were to ask them what do they watch for when deciding on forward motion during passing, i bet that they will say the hands....any refs out there who can help with this one?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 19:41
Originally posted by RedOrDead RedOrDead wrote:

Originally posted by womble womble wrote:

if you were running at 20 mph, to pass the ball backwards at an angle of say 45 degrees you would have to pass the ball quicker than 40 mph (world record is about 48mph from a standing start) so I guess we need to give up playing or blow every pass as forward!! See other thread about scrum re sets lol

Good explanation (as was the pass over your own head explanation above). I understand your point about ruling every pass forward, to me it illustrates the work the IRB need to do on the law book - how many other sports have laws that couldn't possibly be enforced? IMO referees would come in for a lot less criticism if the laws were clearer and didn't require interpretation.

When it comes to forward passes, I guess that the law should be reworded to say that passes should be rules forward if they increase the forward momentum of the ball.


Or create a forward momentum as a a ball in possesion of a palyer who is stood still or has just been tackled will have none!Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 19:59
If the ball has zero forward momentum, creating it would be an increase from zero! ;)
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