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England V Wales TMO- Try or No Try

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Poll Question: Wales Disallowed Try - Correct Decision?
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Shamrose View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamrose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: England V Wales TMO- Try or No Try
    Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:28
After becoming tired of the so called rugby pundits pontificating on this I thought I would put this to the forum
Law says
 
A try is scored "by pressing down on the ball with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player's body from waist to neck".
 
To my mind there was no pressing down on the ball by Wales, so Watson was the first person to touch it down.
 
Correct decision IMHO  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:54
Originally posted by Shamrose Shamrose wrote:

 

Correct decision IMHO  
 

Unless you are blind............it was a try every time I look at it........haven't heard one commentator from either country saying it wasn't a try.........there is absolutely no argument about it. Would Wales have won if that score had been given.......probably not England were much superior in the kicking contest ..........but perhaps their 'bottle' could have gone
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 11:04
I think that if the boot were on the other foot, and it was England who had a potential try ruled out, then every England fan would have been up in arms, and Uncle Eddie would have thrown his toys out of the pram big time.  Would it have changed the outcome?  No.  Did England deserve to win?  Absolutely, yes.

I think it's a shame that it's distracted a lot of attention away from the fact that it was a cracking game between two teams who were actually pretty well-matched.  The Ford-Farrell axis made the difference for me - two players with very similar attributes and skillsets who not only see the opportunities opening up but have the ability to exploit them.  I don't think anyone seriously expected Wales to win given England's form under Eddie Jones, but I think we can take a hell of a lot of positives from the game.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 16:55
I thought it was a try.
I also thought Cueto scored in 2007 but when the decision is in the hands of a TMO you have to accept it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 16:56
Well new footage apparently shows the Welsh winger knocked on do no try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 17:27
Jeremy Guscott says it did touch the Welsh wingers fingers.
Watching the footage I think he is correct but I think it touched
His fingers and then his knee so not a knock on. I think.
Anyway It happened in 1st half and I think England are masters of
doing what they have to do to win.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Friendly prop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 17:30
Originally posted by KnightsBoy KnightsBoy wrote:

Well new footage apparently shows the Welsh winger knocked on do no try.
Quite right KB in slow motion it clearly shows Stef Evans fingers move as he makes contact with the ball that hits his KNEE. So grounding is not relevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 17:42
Originally posted by Friendly prop Friendly prop wrote:

Originally posted by KnightsBoy KnightsBoy wrote:

Well new footage apparently shows the Welsh winger knocked on do no try.
Quite right KB in slow motion it clearly shows Stef Evans fingers move as he makes contact with the ball that hits his KNEE. So grounding is not relevant.


How far back in play does the TMO go in reviewing the build up to any disputed try. In most tries the TMO could go back and identify an offence in the lead up to a try which the referee missed in real time. The key here is the TMO was tasked to review the contested touching down of the ball. He clearly did not look at it frame by frame, as otherwise he would have seen that the Welsh player touched down the ball first.

It’s all immaterial now and we all know that match officials get things wrong in the game, which then influences the outcome of games. International matches are no different and the TMO got it wrong on this occasion and England benefited. The TMO did not mention anything about the knock on by Evans in his deliberations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 17:47
He did ask the TMO to check first that the ball came off wingers knee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 18:04
So the TMO got it doubly wrong then? Brings into doubt the proficency of TMO’s if they can get things that badly wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlos fandango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 18:25
Just goes to show you can't use a 2d tv screen to decide on 3d action. TMO should only be used for line judgements where it's reasonably clear. Might make refs a bit less reliant on the all seeing eye.

Looks to me like the ball rolls away from his grasp as he's trying to touch it down but everyone bar England fans will call me biased
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 18:49
I think the TMO is here to stay, but it will only ever reduce the number of wrong try awards, not eliminate them.

The 'double-doubt' about this incident probably prompted the ref to ask the 'yes/no?' rather than 'any reason why I can't?' question - if it had been the latter, the TMO may have ruled there was insufficient evidence to deny the try.

Surprising how many people, including paid pundits, referred to the issue of 'downward pressure' on the ball when this is no longer part of the Law 8, just the word 'grounding', which appears not to be defined (well not in the 2018 laws on the World Rugby site anyway).

Shane Williams and Peter Jackson both took up the 'we wuz robbed' theme in The Rugby Paper. Jackson pointed out that 7 points went begging and Wales lost by 6, but it was at most 4 points that 'went begging', as a penalty was awarded and converted immediately after the 'no try' verdict. I realise this may have changed the dynamic of the latter stages, if it had been 12-7 (or 12-5) instead of 12-3, but that's conjecture. Jackson also harked back to a disallowed JJ Williams try in 1974 at Twickers which 'happened, by almost eerie coincidence, in the same area in front of the North Stand', which doesn't help establish him as a reliable witness (it was the South Stand on Saturday). He also referred in another article, to the Andy Haden dive in 1978, which I estimate is approximately the 1,374th time he's brought that up... (I can feel a 40th anniversary lament coming up!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 19:02
England clearly benefited from the TMO decision, which went in their favour on Saturday.

I am also sure that England supporters when a TMO decision, which at sometime will surely go against them and influences the outcome of a game they lose, will be gracious enough not to enter into the “we wiz robbed”theme.

Somehow I doubt that very much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 19:41
Originally posted by Exiled_Scots Exiled_Scots wrote:

England clearly benefited from the TMO decision, which went in their favour on Saturday.

I am also sure that England supporters when a TMO decision, which at sometime will surely go against them and influences the outcome of a game they lose, will be gracious enough not to enter into the “we wiz robbed”theme.

Somehow I doubt that very much.


If not the supporters, then EJ certainly.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alderman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 19:51
As a neutral, it seemed to me that if faint finger touches counted, the ball was knocked on well before the try line
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 19:58
Originally posted by Alderman Alderman wrote:

As a neutral, it seemed to me that if faint finger touches counted, the ball was knocked on well before the try line

I'm not totally up with laws now but when I watched, it faintly touched his finger..Then hit his knee and went forward.
Is that a knock on?

Edited by tulip - 12 Feb 2018 at 19:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 22:13
The ref asked the TMO. The TOM said no.
It has taken an age to get RU to use TMO's to stop the type of decision that cost JJ a try in 1974 and a Welsh win against Haden's All Blacks.
Should we go back to that?

Sometimes I wonder if the Welsh enjoy the debate after being 'robbed' more than they would if they had won.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 14:14
Oh dear...

[EDIT] Initially the article just said that Rob Howley reported that they'd had a phone call with Alain Rolland.  Since then, it's been updated to say that World Rugby have confirmed all of the details.  Particularly interesting that they haven't taken the opportunity to say 'but there was a knock-on in the build-up, so the whole conversation is irrelevant anyway'.


Edited by Mark W-J - 13 Feb 2018 at 15:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exiled_Scots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 15:29
Good that World Rugby have acknowledged the significant errors made by the TMO and if there is a positive to come out of this, World Rugby have now enteried the 21st century, rather than remaining in the 19th century and no longer live in a situation where match officials are the “untouchables”.

Edited by Exiled_Scots - 13 Feb 2018 at 15:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 17:44
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Oh dear...

[EDIT] Initially the article just said that Rob Howley reported that they'd had a phone call with Alain Rolland.  Since then, it's been updated to say that World Rugby have confirmed all of the details.  Particularly interesting that they haven't taken the opportunity to say 'but there was a knock-on in the build-up, so the whole conversation is irrelevant anyway'.



It touches his hand and then his knee so I don't think that is a knock on.
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