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England part of Hartpury build-up

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Halliford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 11:02
Originally posted by Allan Foster Allan Foster wrote:

Originally posted by PersonaNonGrata PersonaNonGrata wrote:

The clearest point here is that there is a massive lack of understanding as to how Higher Education Institutes are funded. Yes they do receive government funding but for very specific and tightly controlled purposes. Still it would be a shame to ruin a good prejudice just for the sake of a few facts! 
The "massive lack of understanding" about HE finance PNG is yours. Take it from someone who worked in universities for 38 years & on the management team for 11 years at one, that (taxpayer provided) funding for teaching (rather than research) comes from HEFCE in one large block grant and institutions are allowed to spend it as they choose alongside income from student fees. Hartpury, presumably, chooses to allocate such funds to areas of teaching, including sports courses, in its own way. I am sure though that the substantial funding to rugby programmes and infrastructure is entirely logical from their point of view as it clearly brings returns in the form of student demand (b*ms on seats) and prestige.
 

Allan, I'm afraid you are out of date. As someone who lost his teaching post at a University last year after 14 years the funding has been very different since 2011. Universities receive the tuition fee for the students they recruit to Courses. The only block grants from HEFCE are now for STEM Courses so Sports, Marketing and Business attract no block grant. There is HEFCE grant funding for Research activities based on a University's performance in the REF review. Most Universities now raise additional funds from alumni and other sources to top up what they receive. At post-graduate level, where I worked, Universities are focussed almost entirely on overseas students who will pay the very large fees necessary to fund expensive Courses like MBAs.

Unless Loughborough and Hartpury are able to divert tuition fees to the maintenance of their facilities and their teams, the funding will not be state funding; although it is true that the facilities were constructed under the block grant regime.
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Allan Foster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allan Foster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 11:13
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Allan, I'm afraid you are out of date. As someone who lost his teaching post at a University last year after 14 years the funding has been very different since 2011. Universities receive the tuition fee for the students they recruit to Courses. The only block grants from HEFCE are now for STEM Courses so Sports, Marketing and Business attract no block grant. There is HEFCE grant funding for Research activities based on a University's performance in the REF review. Most Universities now raise additional funds from alumni and other sources to top up what they receive. At post-graduate level, where I worked, Universities are focussed almost entirely on overseas students who will pay the very large fees necessary to fund expensive Courses like MBAs.

Unless Loughborough and Hartpury are able to divert tuition fees to the maintenance of their facilities and their teams, the funding will not be state funding; although it is true that the facilities were constructed under the block grant regime.

Fair cop gov! Mea culpa. Just shows what being out of the mainstream for ... err ... ten years means ... terminal confusion and over inflated beliefs that I knew the system. Apologies to everyone!


An academic is someone who sees something working perfectly in practice & wonders if it will work in theory
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No 7 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 12:43
Originally posted by Skipton Gardener Skipton Gardener wrote:

IMHO, please get both Hartpury and Loughborough out of this league structure and let them play other students and allow "proper" rugby clubs to take their place......


To suggest Loughborough is not a "proper" rugby club is incredibly insulting to all the players who go through that particular University. The amount of quality rugby players who filter through and play at National One and Championship level is astounding to say the least !.

They play for no financial reward and in my opinion they are the proper rugby players and not the journey men that fill most clubs and suck the life blood out of "proper" rugby clubs and make it unsustainable for most clubs. There are dozens of players jumping from club to club with no understanding of loyalty and playing for the shirt.

Unfortunately it is the system in place and will never be reversed
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 14:12
They should join forces and become Hartborough or Loughpury.
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Longtime View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 15:21
[QUOTE=No 7] In my opinion they are the proper rugby players and not the journey men that fill most clubs and suck the life blood out of "proper" rugby clubs and make it unsustainable for most clubs.

So what is the difference between these so-called "journeymen" and former Gloucester players whom we are told seem to be employed as maintenance men?
It pays to be wise after the event!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 20:12
Just returned from Hartbury where in the starting line up Hartbury had 6 current students.
So many Christians not enough Lions
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Allan Foster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allan Foster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 20:35
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

Just returned from Hartbury where in the starting line up Hartbury had 6 current students.
Blimey! If so, that's taking the ****. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. 



Edited by Allan Foster - 07 Mar 2015 at 23:26
An academic is someone who sees something working perfectly in practice & wonders if it will work in theory
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Rabbie Burns View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 20:39
Plus I can assure you the guys I talked to after the game were not there for free in fact one is travelling 1.5 hours to get there
So many Christians not enough Lions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N W Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 20:43
...suppose they have the honour of being public servants...
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Longtime View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 21:40
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

Just returned from Hartbury where in the starting line up Hartbury had 6 current students.
While they may well be sensitive over having their student credentials questioned, I rather gather Hartpury College RFC get even more annoyed when opposition officials don't seem to know what their team is called.



Edited by Longtime - 07 Mar 2015 at 21:42
It pays to be wise after the event!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote geebee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 21:52
Here we go again the old student bashing debate. This really is an annual occurrence. As someone who has been involved with the Loughborough Students for a number of years this argument really gets disheartening. Some straight facts / opinionated rant

There are very strict regulations covering the spending of money in HE. Admittedly some money comes from the University for some of the facilities but these facilities are available to every sport and every student across campus. The fact that we are in National 1 and the additional expenses that incurs are all fundraised for through sponsors and the local community / Vice Presidents. Frankly that takes a lot of hard work as most clubs will know, so to assume we don't have to do it is insulting.

We have not been granted any special privileges but have worked our way up through the leagues. The current crop of players in National 1 stand on the shoulders of many more before them who took week after week of 'student bashing' in the lower leagues.

The model used by Loughborough Students is very different to that of Hartpury. Please don't assume we are both the same.

Yes we do sometimes bring in loan players as a last resort in positions where we may be struggling. However this is always done as a last resort and where it may endanger players if we didn't (e.g. Prop). We don't however pay for those players.

Our focus is on the student as an individual not as a rugby player. If a student is not performing academically then they will not be picked for the squad.

For anyone to suggest our presence in the league has meant that community clubs have been relegated is not about the presence of students but simply that teams get relegated. After all we are not out of the woods yet and if we go down so be it.

Almost every club in this league has at least one ex Loughborough player. We provide a steady stream of players who are experienced at this level. We also provide a steady stream of coaches to the community as we train students to be coaches also.

Yes our model is different, I don't think it gives us any advantages but certainly does give us different challenges to the traditional community club. I am not knocking community clubs they are the heart and soul of rugby and they are always my favourite to visit on away games. Surely there is room for both in this league.

That's it rant over. See you next year when the same people will start the conversation all over again.
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Allan Foster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allan Foster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2015 at 22:53
Originally posted by geebee geebee wrote:

The model used by Loughborough Students is very different to that of Hartpury. Please don't assume we are both the same.
I take this point very much to heart Geebee!

I see that the excellent former Luff flanker who moved to Lancashire for a teaching post, played for Fylde on and off for five seasons before moving back to a post at Trent College in the summer, came on as a replacement for you today. Steve McGinnis was a very popular player at the Woodlands, a quality openside and a star for Lancashire in the County Championship too. As far as I know, he's not a current Luff student nor maintenance man!
  



Edited by Allan Foster - 07 Mar 2015 at 22:59
An academic is someone who sees something working perfectly in practice & wonders if it will work in theory
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geebee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2015 at 07:05
Originally posted by Allan Foster Allan Foster wrote:

Originally posted by geebee geebee wrote:

The model used by Loughborough Students is very different to that of Hartpury. Please don't assume we are both the same.

I take this point very much to heart Geebee!

I see that the excellent former Luff flanker who moved to Lancashire for a teaching post, played for Fylde on and off for five seasons before moving back to a post at Trent College in the summer, came on as a replacement for you today. Steve McGinnis was a very popular player at the Woodlands, a quality openside and a star for Lancashire in the County Championship too. As far as I know, he's not a current Luff student nor maintenance man!
  




Steve came to us wanting to play and some experience was needed by the young guys. I believe he is also coaching. However he's not being paid! All at the Woodlands will be pleased to know he seems to be settling in well.
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Allan Foster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allan Foster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2015 at 08:20
Originally posted by geebee geebee wrote:

Steve came to us wanting to play and some experience was needed by the young guys. I believe he is also coaching. However he's not being paid! All at the Woodlands will be pleased to know he seems to be settling in well.
Delighted to hear that he's back playing at N1 level. He's far too good a player to retire prematurely. I reckon that he was one of the best openside flankers in the division. Like all good opensides, he is very courageous and puts his body on the line for the cause. His face used to carry the literal scars of this bravery. We certainly miss him!

An academic is someone who sees something working perfectly in practice & wonders if it will work in theory
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2015 at 13:21
Originally posted by Longtime Longtime wrote:

[QUOTE=No 7] In my opinion they are the proper rugby players and not the journey men that fill most clubs and suck the life blood out of "proper" rugby clubs and make it unsustainable for most clubs.

So what is the difference between these so-called "journeymen" and former Gloucester players whom we are told seem to be employed as maintenance men?

I did state :To suggest Loughborough is not a "proper" rugby club is incredibly insulting to all the players who go through that particular University.

The difference is that I was referring to Loughborough University and not Hartpury College who I believe only have a handful of genuine students in their team as opposed to Loughborough who are full with genuine Students.






Edited by No 7 - 08 Mar 2015 at 13:24
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2015 at 14:04
As Hartpury have less than half a team of students, perhaps one should think of them as an ordinary club who just happen to have exceptional facilities at a minimal cost (probably zero).

The fact they have a number of ex pros who they have arranged jobs for is no different to a lot of clubs at N1 or any lower level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Remember Izal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2015 at 08:59
I find it hard to believe that Loughborough have used Championship props without paying for them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote geebee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2015 at 23:27
Originally posted by Remember Izal Remember Izal wrote:

I find it hard to believe that Loughborough have used Championship props without paying for them.


Money isn't everything. Game time, good coaching and training, a good atmosphere and a good relationship with other clubs can be powerful assets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Remember Izal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2015 at 12:30
Does that mean they didn't pay him and the parent club kept picking up his wages. Flying pigs springs to mind
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2015 at 08:22
Loughborough University trained with Saracens this week in prep for the game against Esher. The BUC`s  team play in the semi final today against Exeter University today.

To be able to train with premiership clubs is a great experience for the young team .
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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