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Eng v NZ

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Woody View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Eng v NZ
    Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 13:12
So Eddie has retained 25 players for the All Blacks.

Just out of interest can someone explain why we do not have a recognised fullback in the squad? Daly is an outside centre isn't he? I know Watson is injured but surely Mike Brown or Goode should play in their position rather than Daly there? It is bad enough making him play on the wing but he was lucky to get away with his performance last week and the ABs will bombard him if he is picked there this week.

It looks like the England cricket team selections to me. Lots of all rounders and no specialists. Trying to squeeze all the talent into the team with little regard for the way they will work together.

Just for fun my starting 15 given the squad:

1 Moon
2 Hartley
3 Williams
Need to make sure of the set piece ball first and bring on Sinkler, Hepburn and George second half to run it.

4 Itoje (discipline must improve)
5 Kruis
Lawes on the bench

6 Shields (although I am yet to be convinced)
7 Underhill
8 Wilson
Mercer on the bench

9 Youngs (really hope he doesn't kick it away all the time)
10 Farrell
Care and Ford on the bench (although Cipriani should be in this squad)

11 May
12 Teo (only for continuity. Not convinced he is fit)
13 Tuilagi (if fit he has to start as Slade is too lightweight)
Daly on the bench
14 Ashton (for niggle)
15 Nowell (sigh, at least he is OK under the high ball and has the feet to run it back a la Robinson, he says clutching at straws.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dummyH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 13:35
1. Moon - was good from bench last week
2. Hartley
3. Sinkler - need all the ball carriers we can get from the off
 
4. Itoje
5. Kruis - Lawes to hopefully make an impact from bench
 
6. Wilson - think Jones may tinker and Shields wasn't brilliant last week...
7. Underhill
8. Mercer
 
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
 
12. Teo - continuity, Tuilagi chaos from bench
13. Slade - need a ball player to make use of the back 3
 
11. May
14. Nowell/Ashton - unsure on this as you want Ashton to finish any chance created
15. Daly - not sure what you watched last week but was good under high ball ( was also v good on Lions tour under high ball, esp kick chases from wing).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 14:00
Glad to hear Lawes back injury has improved
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 15:16
Daly murdered three draw and gives for scores last week.He has form doing that for Wasps and if you can't spot the opportunity / haven't got the vision at this level it will cost games and you shouldn't be at FB. Move him to the wing where he doesn't have to pass so often.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 22:39
Daly is a quality international rugby player but he is not a world class fullback. But then nobody else in the squad is so he is not to blame if he has a bad game. Selection is pretty odd really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 12:48
And he can kick long range penalties.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Westcoaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 17:26
Underhill's try looked ok to me. Was it Lawes who was called offside ? He was certainly onside when the scrum half picked up and kicked. 
Come on Jersey........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 17:30
The referee and the TMO should be ashamed of themselves for that level of incompetence. He was clearly onside as the ball was out of the ruck before he moved forward.

Edited by Robb - 10 Nov 2018 at 17:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 17:43
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

The referee and the TMO should be ashamed of themselves for that level of incompetence. He was clearly onside as the ball was out of the ruck before he moved forward.



The decision is that he started from an offside position. Not behind the ruck.The ball was out when started his charge down. Was he he behind the back foot? It was incredibly close and in my opinion a try all day.

Edited by No 7 - 10 Nov 2018 at 17:45
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeeBumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 18:12
Anyone want to chance their arm?  If the Kiwi with the ball at his feet was not bound on, was the ball not, in fact, out of the ruck and in open play long before Lawes could be adjudged to have been offside Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pristine Shorts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 18:32
Such a bad decision.The ref was not more than 10 feet away. He let play on ... end of. Robbed .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneagainstthehead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 18:59
It’s a question of where the offside line was. For Laws it was the hindmost foot of the rearmost England player on his feet and bound into the ruck. He was at all times well behind this line. I can forgive the referee on the field missing this but the TMO has no excuse. Shocking decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 20:43
The offside line is in-line with 'the ruck participants' hindmost foot'.  There only appears to be one England player engaged in the ruck, and he is lying on the floor.  If the offside line is in-line with the England player's hindmost body part, then Lawes is in front and therefore offside.  It didn't help that he ran laterally, in front of three other players who presumably were in an onside position in-line with the back foot.

The Kiwi with the ball at his feet (21, I think) has a hand on the backside of another player who is in the ruck - I think that this means he is bound, and therefore the ball is still in.

And yes, the ref was 10 feet away - which meant he was too close to have an eye on both Lawes and Smith and the precise moment, which is why he was right to refer it upstairs.

It's a tough call, and there are probably half a dozen more clear-cut offences which are missed during every single game.  But ultimately Lawes was offside, even though it was incredibly harsh and England have every right to feel hard done by given the fine margins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeeBumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 00:39
LAWS OF RUGBY UNION - a really interesting site!

Definitions - binding  

Laws by Number - 15 Ruck

The NZ player over the ball was holding on to the ruck at arms length; he was, therefore, not "bound" to it so:

- the ref could/should have sanctioned the NZ player for not binding 

- or the ball was out and in open play (ie no offside line) but with no one playing it until the scrum half picked it up

Only real question now, therefore, is more about chicken and egg - ie when was offside established/over and at what point did someone cross it justifying a penalty sanction Unhappy 

PS  A player on the ground cannot by definition be involved in a ruck - other than illegally!  Was there an England player legally present?  If not it wasn't a ruck Confused


Edited by BeeBumble - 11 Nov 2018 at 19:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 08:52
Also under the new tmo rules I don't think the tmo should have interfered after tge ref had awarded the try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 09:31
Understand and appreciate the informed views posted which help to clarify matters. However in the wider sense England have a lot to work with in a positive sense. 

IMHO Farrell must retain his SO berth because defensively he is much better than both GF and DC and strategically ahead of them as well AT THIS LEVEL.

Underhill had a great game but Mitchell's expensive recruitment did not result in the Eng back row being effective as a unit particularly when NZ counter attacked from deep. Indeed we are miles behind the AB in this area as ED is too hesitant and MB too predictable. Where do we get a good counter attacking FB from ( I'll not mention the best FB in the Prem this season).

SH is still a problem area as despite the fact that both BY and DC played well enough - we don't have anyone with that extra magic though.

Up front George is a liability when throwing in and Sinkler probably not good enough at this level.The return of MV , Genge and BV could make a big difference.

Close game Eng unlucky but always vulnerable to NZ counter so NZ probably deserved it - just!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigmal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 09:32
Originally posted by Woody Woody wrote:

Daly is a quality international rugby player but he is not a world class fullback. But then nobody else in the squad is so he is not to blame if he has a bad game. Selection is pretty odd really.
 

After yesterday I tend to agree - see my earlier post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 10:52
Despite the non-try England still had time enough to fashion either a drop goal or draw a penalty ( anywhere within 60m with Daly around would have been a possibility) then Lawes tried to execute a pass he couldn't do even in the best of weather.
I cannot believe that such a situation wasn't rehehazelnutd or even discussed beforehand which leads to the conclusions that either Lawes acted against team orders or, if not discussed, then EJ is seriously at fault.   


Edited by Insignificant Tick - 12 Nov 2018 at 10:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 10:54
Ha ha 
R e h e a r s e d .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backrowb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 11:11
Offside, sadly. The ruck moved towards the England line and Lawes did not.

The unsung hero for me was Mark Wilson - He gave the backrow the dog and graft that was needed. Perhaps he would be better suited at 6 when he comes back.  Billy, Sam & Mark would work for me.


Edited by backrowb - 12 Nov 2018 at 11:12
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