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Does the wholesale use of DR players damage club r

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Poll Question: Does the wholesale use of DR players damage club rugby
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80 [86.02%]
13 [13.98%]
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Big Eddie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 15:51
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Edited by Big Eddie - 16 Apr 2018 at 16:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbojetset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 15:55



Edited by jimbojetset - 16 Apr 2018 at 17:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 16:01
 






Edited by Big Eddie - 16 Apr 2018 at 16:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Supporter123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 16:02
Big Eddie, I do feel it is important that you do state the facts with number of DR players used by OA’s in the Caldy game. The total was 6 not the 9 that Seagoon or your DoR states publicly in the press. Not sure why a few would have been added on. I can name them from the official teamsheet that I am sure your DoR would have had access to as well through a little basic research.
Perhaps this number is closer to the extreme that has been used this season as oppose to continually quoting the figure of 10 which is correct when stating that all clubs in theory could use 10 DR players but in reality appears that no one actually has.
When you consider clubs such as Coventry, Plymouth, Ampthill, DMP, Esher, Cambridge, BS to name a few have all used DR players at some stage perhaps the extreme picture you are painting is not just as one sided as you would want everyone to believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 16:22
Originally posted by Supporter123 Supporter123 wrote:

Big Eddie, I do feel it is important that you do state the facts with number of DR players used by OA’s in the Caldy game. The total was 6 not the 9 that Seagoon or your DoR states publicly in the press. Not sure why a few would have been added on. I can name them from the official teamsheet that I am sure your DoR would have had access to as well through a little basic research.
Perhaps this number is closer to the extreme that has been used this season as oppose to continually quoting the figure of 10 which is correct when stating that all clubs in theory could use 10 DR players but in reality appears that no one actually has.
When you consider clubs such as Coventry, Plymouth, Ampthill, DMP, Esher, Cambridge, BS to name a few have all used DR players at some stage perhaps the extreme picture you are painting is not just as one sided as you would want everyone to believe.

Supporter 123,

my issue is not with the particular number of DRs used by OAs against Caldy, whether it was 6 as you state, or 7 as I thought or 9 as Seagoon was told is not the point I am making. 

My point is that the RFU has legislated for up to 10 to be used. This in my view shows in crystal clear fashion what the RFU want Level 3 to become.......buddy clubs for the Premiership.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Supporter123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 17:15
I guess the point I am trying to make is when you continually refer to a speicific number to sway opinion in an argument /poll that actually is proven to be incorrect will now doubt paint a picture of a situation that is actually not as bad and as unfair as you portray it to be?
I could be wrong but I get the feeling that many clubs at this level have been utilising DR players in their match day squad (3-4 players) for a number of seasons and what we have actually witnessed this season is not actually too dissimilar to what has happened in past seasons.
As you rightly say the regulation has been introduced this season with the rationale to provide younger players in the Academy system with more meaningful gametime alongside an expanded A League. Hopefully somewhere in the future some of these players will go onto wear a White shirt or even a Red one of the British Lions and hopefully some will filter into the club game as ex Professionals or as players deemed not quite good enough to make it at the top level of the game.
As some other posters have eluded to, no one system will fit all and some clubs will gain an advantage from a larger budget, some will gain an adavantage from their location (lack of cometition for players from surrounding clubs) and some from closer relationships to Premiership clubs.
As Purplehaze has eluded to perhaps we should all enjoy the spectacle for what it is as we will never get a ‘level playing field’ as opinions will always differ on what the best advantages and benefits for each club.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Loyal Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 17:18
However BE ,as Supporter 123 has clearly pointed out many of your previous posts on this (very extensively pushed ) topic suggest the use of 10 DR's in a single game , i believe others have picked up your cue and as we know the 'myth' if expressed often enough can easily become perceived reality....

without dragging up all your previous arguments it is interesting that OA managed a win on Saturday with precisely '0' young Saracens Academy lads in their squad.....perhaps this proves that 'sport is sport' ,not always predictable, and the level playing field you profess to want is in fact not quite as straightforward to achieve as all that!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 17:21
Yorkshire beat Hertfordshire 79-24 in U20's
semi final of county championship on Sunday.
Bit of a joke really. Would seem to indicate
Herts may not have had players available
from previous rounds because they were DR'd
to Old Albanians on the Saturday

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 17:23
Originally posted by Supporter123 Supporter123 wrote:

I guess the point I am trying to make is when you continually refer to a speicific number to sway opinion in an argument /poll that actually is proven to be incorrect will now doubt paint a picture of a situation that is actually not as bad and as unfair as you portray it to be?
I could be wrong but I get the feeling that many clubs at this level have been utilising DR players in their match day squad (3-4 players) for a number of seasons and what we have actually witnessed this season is not actually too dissimilar to what has happened in past seasons.
As you rightly say the regulation has been introduced this season with the rationale to provide younger players in the Academy system with more meaningful gametime alongside an expanded A League. Hopefully somewhere in the future some of these players will go onto wear a White shirt or even a Red one of the British Lions and hopefully some will filter into the club game as ex Professionals or as players deemed not quite good enough to make it at the top level of the game.
As some other posters have eluded to, no one system will fit all and some clubs will gain an advantage from a larger budget, some will gain an adavantage from their location (lack of cometition for players from surrounding clubs) and some from closer relationships to Premiership clubs.
As Purplehaze has eluded to perhaps we should all enjoy the spectacle for what it is as we will never get a ‘level playing field’ as opinions will always differ on what the best advantages and benefits for each club.


For some years each team has been able to field up to 4 DR/loan players in any 1 match squad, this year some idiot changed the limit to 10.

Whereas the previous limit meant each club could possibly have 3 or 4, with this year's limit of 10 this is virtually impossible as there aren't enough DRs to go around.

I think BEs point is that being able to have up to 10 DRs has meant 2 teams in particular have taken advantage of this. Whilst within current league regulations this has totally distorted this year's competition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 17:35
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

Yorkshire beat Hertfordshire 79-24 in U20's
semi final of county championship on Sunday.
Bit of a joke really. Would seem to indicate
Herts may not have had players available
from previous rounds because they were DR'd
to Old Albanians on the Saturday



Helping out a failing OA's rather than representing your county. If that is true, what a waste of young talent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 17:35
I will need to be very explicit this time because my arguments are being distorted.

1. I do not seek a level playing field in terms of resources and finances. I do not want a salary cap and I am happy for clubs to spend what they like and are able to and also buy success if they want to. 
2. I hate the use of DRs (except in exceptional and limited circumstances) as they are temporary/transitory and affect other players in the host club as well as having the ability to distort the league. One week a side is very weak the next they are strong all depending on DR availability.......
3. I am very concerned that the change in the regulations this year re the use of up to 10 DRs signals the RFU's determination to push through this policy to benefit the Premiership and the elite game but to the detriment of the club game
4. If Loughborough and Old Albanians survive this year because of the wholesale use of DRs at the expense of other clubs I think that is manifestly unfair. If it can be shown that Loughborough Students and Old Albanians have not used DRs any more than the average over the season (give or take) by the rest of the league then their survival is fair enough (as long as such use has not been loaded towards the business end of the season.)
5. Whether point 4. is proven to be valid or not this is not the point of the poll and this thread, which are very firmly focussed on point number 3. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monkey Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 17:55
Jimbo what is Steve Smiths role at Sale Fc (formerly Sale Amateurs)?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Supporter123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 17:58
Tulip and Sid that probably goes down as one of the most childish comments on this forumn to date. Why don’t you introduce yourself to the wonderful world of google where you can quickly find the Herts rugby website and find a team sheet which demonstrates how well supported Herts County has been with OA’s players.
Statements like this go a long way to prove that perhaps this debate is centralised around a witch hunt against two clubs as oppose to debating some of the well constructed arguments that people such as BE have taken the time to pull together.
Perhaps it is best left that each club takes care of its own business (such as proposed mergers with other clubs) and leave others to do the same.
I had promised I would not get involved in the debate at length as have no affiliation to any SE club and will refrain from commenting further but would certainly encourage individuals to do some research to gain accurate facts before making statements that others take as gospel truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbojetset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 18:16
Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

Jimbo what is Steve Smiths role at Sale Fc (formerly Sale Amateurs)?

I'm still waiting for the brilliant insight to the history of the club and who on earth are "Sale Amateurs"?
His role is on the website quite predominantly so not sure what other brilliant point you're trying to make.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seagoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 19:18
Originally posted by Supporter123 Supporter123 wrote:

Big Eddie, I do feel it is important that you do state the facts with number of DR players used by OA’s in the Caldy game. The total was 6 not the 9 that Seagoon or your DoR states publicly in the press. Not sure why a few would have been added on. I can name them from the official teamsheet that I am sure your DoR would have had access to as well through a little basic research.
Perhaps this number is closer to the extreme that has been used this season as oppose to continually quoting the figure of 10 which is correct when stating that all clubs in theory could use 10 DR players but in reality appears that no one actually has.
When you consider clubs such as Coventry, Plymouth, Ampthill, DMP, Esher, Cambridge, BS to name a few have all used DR players at some stage perhaps the extreme picture you are painting is not just as one sided as you would want everyone to believe.

Supporter123 do you actually read what's said in posts, on here???
The 9 DR's that I mentioned was only what I had been TOLD, by an OA's member (in the clubhouse before the match)  Maybe he was just trying to wind me up Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 19:41
I dont think he does seagoon.
I did say "if it is true".

Edited by Sid James - 16 Apr 2018 at 19:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PurpleHaze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 20:11
Life's a bitch but life goes on in the 21st Century and we get on with it.

What ever club I have supported I think it is manifestly unfair when they have played a team trying to buy their way to success. There have been a lot of journeymen in the sport who take a club's "Silver shilling" in year 1 only to be tempted by a "Silver shilling and sixpence" to switch allegiance, change jumper and play for an opposing team in year 2. But hey ho, guess what generally both clubs survive to fight another day. We might whine and bitch about it but life goes on.

How do supporters from relegated clubs feel about being condemned because teams bought by money has maybe beaten them? Maybe they feel energised to double their fund raising and sponsorship to enable them to buy players, maybe they feel urinated off. 

The principle of fairness in buying a squad is little different from the abuse of DRs. Both distort the picture, both supress club rugby and both maybe don't lead to Shangri-La as it promised on the tin.

However, maybe there is a beneficial similarity between buying a squad and (ab)using the DR system in that both mean that potentially players of a greater standard will play and train with "club" players and might be able to help nurture player development at that club. How about that angle and I am not talking about helping the DRs develop into elite players who can join rugby's aristocracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 21:00
Originally posted by Supporter123 Supporter123 wrote:

When you consider clubs such as Coventry, Plymouth, Ampthill, DMP, Esher, Cambridge, BS to name a few have all used DR players at some stage perhaps the extreme picture you are painting is not just as one sided as you would want everyone to believe.


Totally misleading with regard to Coventry.
Coventries total use of DRs this season has been 4 players, totalling between them 23 matches - or on average less than one per match. This is nothing like the extreme figures of half a dozen or more we have seen on occasion this season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbojetset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 22:23
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by Supporter123 Supporter123 wrote:

When you consider clubs such as Coventry, Plymouth, Ampthill, DMP, Esher, Cambridge, BS to name a few have all used DR players at some stage perhaps the extreme picture you are painting is not just as one sided as you would want everyone to believe.


Totally misleading with regard to Coventry.
Coventries total use of DRs this season has been 4 players, totalling between them 23 matches - or on average less than one per match. This is nothing like the extreme figures of half a dozen or more we have seen on occasion this season.

Are you trying to say that anonymous people on a forum who post without all the facts but with an axe to grind are being misleading? You don't say.  I wouldn't worry the posts are often short on factual info and heaving on innuendo and "I heard one of the guys say that he'd heard that her husbands friend once played in their team and they all got paid in gold bullion" etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 22:55
The whole point of forums is debate. 

This subject has had a good airing and I am content that with 67 votes supporting the motion that the wholesale use of dual registered players is bad for club rugby and 9 votes against the motion the views of the Rolling Maul community comes down overwhelmingly against the wholesale use of DRs


Edited by Big Eddie - 16 Apr 2018 at 22:56
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