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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 13:12
Originally posted by Hopping Mad Hopping Mad wrote:

Who is going to watch it? What were the viewing figures like on Sky for Championship games? Not huge I’m betting.

So what actual commercial value could they realistically demand? Given it will be a semi pro competition going forward, that broadcasters can offer much reduced packages and the weekly cumulative crowds run to a few thousand spectators at best, where is the demand for this product?

There is none I’d suggest. 

You've beat me to it.  I wouldn't be surprised to find that out clubs would have to pay a broadcaster to take the games rather than the other way around. 

Broadcasters are wanting something that can appeal to an audience wider than the few thousands that attend games.  With the promotion gateway more or less decided before the season starts, the appeal becomes less and less. 

Saracens aside for the minute, next season can you name a Championship player that the man on the Clapham Omnibus could identify? Even with Saracens there is no guarantee that they will play the Farrells etc in any Championship game.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 13:33
Originally posted by Hopping Mad Hopping Mad wrote:

Who is going to watch it? What were the viewing figures like on Sky for Championship games? Not huge I’m betting.

So what actual commercial value could they realistically demand? Given it will be a semi pro competition going forward, that broadcasters can offer much reduced packages and the weekly cumulative crowds run to a few thousand spectators at best, where is the demand for this product?

There is none I’d suggest. 


I'm sure currently the viewing figures are not high (on Sky) - however if it were on ITV then I suspect a lot of rugby fans would watch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pappashanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 13:36
People watch darts, general knowledge quizzes, game shows, horse racing  etc. Anything competitive. They might well watch a good game of rugby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 13:41
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Hopping Mad Hopping Mad wrote:

Who is going to watch it? What were the viewing figures like on Sky for Championship games? Not huge I’m betting.

So what actual commercial value could they realistically demand? Given it will be a semi pro competition going forward, that broadcasters can offer much reduced packages and the weekly cumulative crowds run to a few thousand spectators at best, where is the demand for this product?

There is none I’d suggest. 


I'm sure currently the viewing figures are not high (on Sky) - however if it were on ITV then I suspect a lot of rugby fans would watch.

If ITV (etc) thought they was an audience they would try and obtain the rights. 

Sky only showed the games as they were bundled with the Autumn Internationals, not as a standalone package.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 13:54
Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

People watch darts, general knowledge quizzes, game shows, horse racing  etc. Anything competitive. They might well watch a good game of rugby.

You fail to appreciate or understand that for a commercial broadcaster they has to be a target audience that is of interest to advertisers. 

What makes the Championship of interest to advertisers? No one has yet to answer that question. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 14:12
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

People watch darts, general knowledge quizzes, game shows, horse racing  etc. Anything competitive. They might well watch a good game of rugby.

You fail to appreciate or understand that for a commercial broadcaster they has to be a target audience that is of interest to advertisers. 

What makes the Championship of interest to advertisers? No one has yet to answer that question. 

Did you mean to be quite so pompous? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 14:13
Richard I think it unlikely the A league/Premership Shield will run next season- Premiership clubs simply do not have big enough squads of either senior or academy players. Therefore a good number of the best young English players at Prem clubs will be dual registered with the Championship clubs and so this could significantly increase interest of advertisers. The Championship for one season will also have Saracens involved. To have on TV any of the likes of Farrell, George, Vunipola x 2, Daley or Itoje playing away in the Championship at Ampthill or Richmond will certainly draw an audience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 14:48
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

People watch darts, general knowledge quizzes, game shows, horse racing  etc. Anything competitive. They might well watch a good game of rugby.


You fail to appreciate or understand that for a commercial broadcaster they has to be a target audience that is of interest to advertisers. 

What makes the Championship of interest to advertisers? No one has yet to answer that question. 


Did you mean to be quite so pompous? 


In a traditional world where there were only a small number of broadcasters that was true however with the number of broadcasters now including the internet you can find a large number of smaller sports being televised. I don't think any of us would expect prime time BT 1,2,3 or Sky Sports 1,2,3 I did a Wikipedia and it came up with a list of 480 agreed some are specialist and regional channels but that is still going to give room for some Rugby
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 15:43
Originally posted by JonDee JonDee wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

People watch darts, general knowledge quizzes, game shows, horse racing  etc. Anything competitive. They might well watch a good game of rugby.


You fail to appreciate or understand that for a commercial broadcaster they has to be a target audience that is of interest to advertisers. 

What makes the Championship of interest to advertisers? No one has yet to answer that question. 


Did you mean to be quite so pompous? 


In a traditional world where there were only a small number of broadcasters that was true however with the number of broadcasters now including the internet you can find a large number of smaller sports being televised. I don't think any of us would expect prime time BT 1,2,3 or Sky Sports 1,2,3 I did a Wikipedia and it came up with a list of 480 agreed some are specialist and regional channels but that is still going to give room for some Rugby

And how many are banging on the door, cheque in hand to televise the league?

Attracting advertisers is becoming harder and harder even without the current pandemic. They can pickand choose and play sports and TV companies off against each other so... 

With the worry I will be called pompous again (one to add to the fruit filter!) what is the selling point of this league?

Why isn't anyone answering the fundamental question that television companies and advertisers would be the first to ask?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 15:55
Originally posted by marigold marigold wrote:

Richard I think it unlikely the A league/Premership Shield will run next season- Premiership clubs simply do not have big enough squads of either senior or academy players. Therefore a good number of the best young English players at Prem clubs will be dual registered with the Championship clubs and so this could significantly increase interest of advertisers. The Championship for one season will also have Saracens involved. To have on TV any of the likes of Farrell, George, Vunipola x 2, Daley or Itoje playing away in the Championship at Ampthill or Richmond will certainly draw an audience.

We've had dual registration for a while now with this type of player (board passim) but there is no evidence it draws larger crowds, income or sponsorship.

The players no matter how good only became attractive once they are Premiership 'stars' or internationals.

Press speculation suggest that the big Saracens names will be sphazelnutly used. I agree Farrell etc will be a draw if they play or possibly if they attend and make themselves available, but even then what do you do the following season when Saracens are presumably back in the Premiership?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 16:05
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by JonDee JonDee wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

People watch darts, general knowledge quizzes, game shows, horse racing  etc. Anything competitive. They might well watch a good game of rugby.


You fail to appreciate or understand that for a commercial broadcaster they has to be a target audience that is of interest to advertisers. 

What makes the Championship of interest to advertisers? No one has yet to answer that question. 


Did you mean to be quite so pompous? 


In a traditional world where there were only a small number of broadcasters that was true however with the number of broadcasters now including the internet you can find a large number of smaller sports being televised. I don't think any of us would expect prime time BT 1,2,3 or Sky Sports 1,2,3 I did a Wikipedia and it came up with a list of 480 agreed some are specialist and regional channels but that is still going to give room for some Rugby


And how many are banging on the door, cheque in hand to televise the league?

Attracting advertisers is becoming harder and harder even without the current pandemic. They can pickand choose and play sports and TV companies off against each other so... 

With the worry I will be called pompous again (one to add to the fruit filter!) what is the selling point of this league?

Why isn't anyone answering the fundamental question that television companies and advertisers would be the first to ask?




Think you are asking a very good question,

Attacking exciting rugby with some of the best young English talent
A shop window for the players of the future ( list of players who have gone to premiership/internationals
a league which develops coaches for the future , list of coaches who have moved to next level
most players are qualified for the Home Nations
am sure you and others can add to this list
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 16:12
Originally posted by JonDee JonDee wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by JonDee JonDee wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

People watch darts, general knowledge quizzes, game shows, horse racing  etc. Anything competitive. They might well watch a good game of rugby.


You fail to appreciate or understand that for a commercial broadcaster they has to be a target audience that is of interest to advertisers. 

What makes the Championship of interest to advertisers? No one has yet to answer that question. 


Did you mean to be quite so pompous? 


In a traditional world where there were only a small number of broadcasters that was true however with the number of broadcasters now including the internet you can find a large number of smaller sports being televised. I don't think any of us would expect prime time BT 1,2,3 or Sky Sports 1,2,3 I did a Wikipedia and it came up with a list of 480 agreed some are specialist and regional channels but that is still going to give room for some Rugby


And how many are banging on the door, cheque in hand to televise the league?

Attracting advertisers is becoming harder and harder even without the current pandemic. They can pickand choose and play sports and TV companies off against each other so... 

With the worry I will be called pompous again (one to add to the fruit filter!) what is the selling point of this league?

Why isn't anyone answering the fundamental question that television companies and advertisers would be the first to ask?




Think you are asking a very good question,

Attacking exciting rugby with some of the best young English talent
A shop window for the players of the future ( list of players who have gone to premiership/internationals
a league which develops coaches for the future , list of coaches who have moved to next level
most players are qualified for the Home Nations
am sure you and others can add to this list

sorry didn't address your first point, no one is going to run around with a cheque in hand asking to televise us, many wont have heard of us .
The Championship have got to find a damned good sales person and offer them a good deal to look at the TV companies understand what market they are aiming at and tailor a package to make them think we are the perfect match with their aims. No one has done this, their are people out their in some cases are probably parents of mini and juniors themselves .It is finding the right people I am not saying it will be easy but it needs to be done .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hopping Mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 16:45
Unfortunately some people are kidding themselves about the attractiveness of this to TV companies, even more so if they think there will be any rights deal to be done.

Those citing Sarries involvement are looking at a very short term arrangement. To be clear, after the end of the 20/21 season the ring fence will come into play.

There will be no full time rugby outside of the top 13 (at most Top 14 if Ealing wanted to go down the legal route). Clubs are already planning for this new environment. A huge document is coming out from those clubs explaining how this new approach will work. There are already a surfeit of released “pros” not getting clubs or seeing their already small “pro” deals being reworked.

What the game has to wake up to is that outside of the Pro 13/14, what is the game going to look like? More regional rugby should actually mean a lower salary cap than we already see in the National leagues. The union are skint, clubs are skint and mostly burnt out of trying to play at being pros. There is no commercial value being missed that will suddenly make the game viable to clubs outside the Pro 13/14 to maintain the operations they are currently. The clubs themselves see this, the appetite within the RFU is to be more radical in its proposals. Change is coming and not before time having burnt its way through hundreds of millions of pounds over the last 20 years to have effectively gone nowhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 17:17
Aside from Soccer -which other sports have a FTA TV package for their second tier?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 18:25
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by JonDee JonDee wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Pappashanga Pappashanga wrote:

People watch darts, general knowledge quizzes, game shows, horse racing  etc. Anything competitive. They might well watch a good game of rugby.


You fail to appreciate or understand that for a commercial broadcaster they has to be a target audience that is of interest to advertisers. 

What makes the Championship of interest to advertisers? No one has yet to answer that question. 


Did you mean to be quite so pompous? 


In a traditional world where there were only a small number of broadcasters that was true however with the number of broadcasters now including the internet you can find a large number of smaller sports being televised. I don't think any of us would expect prime time BT 1,2,3 or Sky Sports 1,2,3 I did a Wikipedia and it came up with a list of 480 agreed some are specialist and regional channels but that is still going to give room for some Rugby


And how many are banging on the door, cheque in hand to televise the league?

Attracting advertisers is becoming harder and harder even without the current pandemic. They can pickand choose and play sports and TV companies off against each other so... 

With the worry I will be called pompous again (one to add to the fruit filter!) what is the selling point of this league?

Why isn't anyone answering the fundamental question that television companies and advertisers would be the first to ask?




Rugby, although not as big as Football, has a large following in England. I'm sure they would get reasonable viewing figures for 1 live match a week.

Yes, Saracens are only likely to be in the Championship for 1 season - but what better time to sort out a TV deal on terrestrial TV.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dotcom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 18:25
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Aside from Soccer -which other sports have a FTA TV package for their second tier?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 20:40
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:



Rugby, although not as big as Football, has a large following in England. I'm sure they would get reasonable viewing figures for 1 live match a week.

Yes, Saracens are only likely to be in the Championship for 1 season - but what better time to sort out a TV deal on terrestrial TV.

No International Rugby has a large following; numbers elsewhere are chicken feed, whether it be attendances (unless it is a contrived club fixture at Wembley, Twickenham etc) or TV viewing. 

The fourth tier of English football is about where most Rugby Premiership attendances are at. 

http://rd.premiershiprugby.com/stats/attendance.php (strangely not given as averages.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 20:42
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:



Rugby, although not as big as Football, has a large following in England. I'm sure they would get reasonable viewing figures for 1 live match a week.

Yes, Saracens are only likely to be in the Championship for 1 season - but what better time to sort out a TV deal on terrestrial TV.


No International Rugby has a large following; numbers elsewhere are chicken feed, whether it be attendances (unless it is a contrived club fixture at Wembley, Twickenham etc) or TV viewing. 

The fourth tier of English football is about where most Rugby Premiership attendances are at. 

http://rd.premiershiprugby.com/stats/attendance.php (strangely not given as averages.)


Premiership rugby attendances are a lot higher than Football League 2 (the 4th level)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 20:43
I would note that college football in America is fully amateur, and on any given Saturday in the fall you will see stadiums full of tens of thousands of fans from coast to coast with dozens of games per week televised. The WORST attended program in the top division (of 130 schools) gets an average of 9000 fans per game. So I don't accept the argument that people aren't willing to watch amateur sports on TV.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 20:48
Originally posted by gerg_861 gerg_861 wrote:

I would note that college football in America is fully amateur, and on any given Saturday in the fall you will see stadiums full of tens of thousands of fans from coast to coast with dozens of games per week televised. The WORST attended program in the top division (of 130 schools) gets an average of 9000 fans per game. So I don't accept the argument that people aren't willing to watch amateur sports on TV.



Yes college football gets good attendances, but then given the size of the population and the paucity of NFL teams it is hardly surprising.
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