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Bring back Hooking

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OLDALIKADOO10 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OLDALIKADOO10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bring back Hooking
    Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 17:20
I went to watch LW V CP for the first 75 minutes and popped round the corner to watch the second half of LS V Rotherham. Both scrums in both matches were even and I saw one ball hooked all afternoon. The ball was put in albeit a little crocked and the scrum in both matches, all game, ended in a penalty.
As a spectator this will ruin rugby as now one wants to watch endless resets and when the ball does go in a static phase (a sort of where's Wally, where after a rather extended period of time a penalty then ensues to applause by the side winning the penalty .
I propose if the ball if not hooked instantly a penalty is given to the defending side. Japan reintroduced channel 1 ball and look what they achieved. 
Your thoughts?

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isleonian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote isleonian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 17:59
Maybe change the name of the number 2 to Centre Prop, or Non-Hooker, or Lineout Thrower
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stadium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 18:05
I agree . Watching the Bath v Northampton match was a good example of the problem also boring and not entertaining . The Ref lost control of the scrums and we had continuous resets and penalties. As Mike Ford said the referees  scrum interpretation are chaotic and need sorting out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Westcoaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 18:08
Completely agree - bring back hooking and a straight put in .
I was with a non rugby guy at a match recently and he and I were completely foxed as to why penalties were being given against a side whose sole "offence " seemed to be to get shoved backwards.Unhappy He was not impressed and I found it hard to say why a penalty was given.
And I would also stop the clock when the whistle is blown for a scrum, and restart it when the ball is put in.  There must be at least five to ten minutes in almost every senior game when nothing happens other than the scrums getting ready and the ref calls, "touch, bind, engage" or whatever it is this year......Confused
Come on Jersey........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 18:29
Originally posted by Westcoaster Westcoaster wrote:

And I would also stop the clock when the whistle is blown for a scrum, and restart it when the ball is put in.  There must be at least five to ten minutes in almost every senior game when nothing happens other than the scrums getting ready and the ref calls, "touch, bind, engage" or whatever it is this year......Confused


Completely agree. Start the clock when the ball is put in.

Re hooking - it's clear that players are scared to hook rather than push. It effectively makes it 7 v 8 pushing and they don't want to be shunted backwards.
We all agree that the ball should be put in straight, but if it is put in straight and hookers don't hook, it just sits in the tunnel until the scrum collapses and you get the inevitable penalty or reset.
Needs sorting, but who knows how to sort it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OLDALIKADOO10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 18:52
Very simple. Hooking is a lost art. You need to hook the ball. Teams will employ a hooker. After a couple of weeks where the non hooking side concedes endless penalties, they will soon learn. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LJ from Roth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 19:23
At Titans Tuesday at Rotherham early on in the season, where players and coaching staff review games, show the skills needed in line outs etc, our hookers spoke about the 'new' technique of hooking with the knee. This allows the scrum to stay lower, the hooker not having to put a leg forward to hook the ball, just to lower a knee, and if the scrum half gets it in with a bit of pace and reasonably straight, it hits the hooker's knee and goes back to the 2nd row. Well that was the plan!

At times it does just look like the ball sits in the channel as they try 8v8 to shove the other side back, or more usually, it goes in a bit off line, and straight to the second row! As for the ref, doesn't penalise not straight very often and so the scrubs continue to be a lottery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pirate Pig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 19:27
Originally posted by OLDALIKADOO10 OLDALIKADOO10 wrote:

Very simple. Hooking is a lost art. You need to hook the ball. Teams will employ a hooker. After a couple of weeks where the non hooking side concedes endless penalties, they will soon learn. 


Unfortunately as already stated IF a hooker goes to strike the majority of opponents employ a 8 man push. Its like losing a forward to a yellow card and only a change in the laws will bring back 'old fashioned' hooking role.
How about the opposing side can't push until the ball has been put in and struck by the hooker?

I also watched the Bath v Northampton match and it was short on entertainment considering the quality of players on show.
Mr Maxwell-Keys was officiating and I was concerned that as IMO he is not a premiership standard official and that may influence the outcome of the game.
It will be interesting to see what game plan Eddie Jones employs with England. Will he stick with the more forward orientated English game or introduce a more Southern Hemisphere based style OR the best of both?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 20:22
As an old style hooker who weighed in at 14 stone and winning 3 against the head could get you "Man of the Match"I get very annoyed about the crooked feeds.
The Irish front row weighed in at 350 kgs,ie 19 stone a man. Why because you just have to be big enough to screw your opposition down and win a penalty.
The ball will be fed in crooked anyway and the Referee isn't bothered about that so just win the penalty.
We have a plethora of Tongan,Samoan props earning big money because they are 19 stone and can screw the opposition down as well as run a bit.
So Why not put a weight limit on Props and Hookers (It's going to come from a concussion/ Safety issue eventually anyway) and get back to Hookers winning the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kingsheathlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 20:46
In some games it seems the team with the dominant scrum hold the ball in the back of the scrum waiting for the referee to award a penalty following the opposition's offence elsewhere. In the scrum. This seems to slow the game and reduce ball going to the backs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 21:47
How about bringing in a rule that the ball has to be used after 5 seconds or if the scrum I physically moving forward. That would mean that the Hooker would have to hook, none of this 'hold the ball in the channel' rubbish. Use it or lose it.
And yes, it may mean that one team is shoving with 8 men against 7 whilst the Hooker hooks, but they get the ball. However they do it, something has got to change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldExile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 21:51
Originally posted by kingsheathlad kingsheathlad wrote:

In some games it seems the team with the dominant scrum hold the ball in the back of the scrum waiting for the referee to award a penalty following the opposition's offence elsewhere. In the scrum. This seems to slow the game and reduce ball going to the backs.


Quite agree. There ought to be some limit to how long scrums may be allowed to hold the ball without themselves being penalised. A "use it " might work. I am fed up with interminable scrums that simply serve to show that one scrum is marginally better than the other (in the inestimable opinion of Sir, who has never in his life been close to the front row).

Scrums were intended to be means of restarting the game, not a dice to the death to gain a penalty. Tough one to sort, many opinions, most valid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RedOrDead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 22:37
If a solution that stops the team with the put in being at a significant disadvantage, I would be all in favour of encouraging / enforcing hooking, but I've yet to see one that I feel would.

In the same way that few if any people enjoy watching reset scrums, few if any are likely to enjoy watching backs living off scrappy ball and a series of pick and goes that are likely to occur when the eight is forced to pick the ball up, which is the likely outcome of creating 7 vs 8 scrums for the attacking side as far as I can see it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CornishChief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 22:46
The Laws of the game need to be enforced as a whole.

The breakdown is a joke, players flopping all over the place. If you're off your feet you're out of the game so get out of the ruck.

The administrators have messed with the game far too much. All in my humble opinion of course
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mundiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 13:14
Ahhhh the good old days.  Props were called props because they supported the Hooker without pushing so that the Hooker could hook the ball.  The Scum fully formed and the Ref could move it to where he wanted it without much effort.  The Scrum Half would put the ball into the scrum straight down the tunnel.  Now the Second Row, Flankers and Number Eight could push whilst the Hooker still being supported by the Props could hook the ball back to the Second row and then the Number Eight, who could then pass it to the Scrum Half. The ball was then passed out to the flying Backs who could score a scintillating Try and all in under 3 minutes.
 
OOps, I forgot to mention the impact of eight gym monkeys hitting another eight gym monkeys crashing into each other, the Props loosing their bind, the inevitable collapse of the Scrum and the Scrum being reset, time after time after time after time .............................
 
Ahhhh the good old days Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 13:33
Anyone who watched Sale on Fri night will see that they will always hook it back and Josh Beaumont or the scrum half can then make a decision on where they want to go next. The Bath v Northampton game I thought the ref apart from the last couple got the decisions bang on as Bath were going back at a rate of knots and Brookes and Waller were outstanding. It's funny how Bath are now under performing and Ford is trying to deflect blame from his own players. More of a reason to get the ball out of the scrum in my view. Very poor form to then lay the blame at a young official who is learning his trade but TBF is the Prem the place to do that and is he ready? Maybe fans, players and coaches want and deserve better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stadium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 14:49
Really pleased that Jim Mallinder did not get the England job. I have watched Northampton twice this season and they only offer boring and grunge rugby with no entertainment value. I will give them a miss this Saturday when they play the Scarlets.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bullwhip griffen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2015 at 15:03
Don't put the ball in - just award a free kick to the side that pushes across the gain line. Penalty for a scrum collapse or lifted opponents.
That's at least a radical and simple solution that would change physique and technique overnight.


Edited by bullwhip griffen - 08 Dec 2015 at 15:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Blue Eyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2015 at 13:28
Not a technical solution to the scrum (just make them put it in straight sir, surely?) but if I could make one change to the laws, it would be giving the team a choice of free kick OR scrum in event of knock on, forward pass etc so we can get on with the game!

Frankly, as a long-time supporter of Bedford we have always tried to play a fast, free-flowing game as that is what's proven to get the crowds in.

We had Tim Wigglesworth at our place on Sat and frankly his refereeing of the scrum was an affront to humanity. Descended into a god awful mess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2015 at 13:39
Originally posted by Ol' Blue Eyes Ol' Blue Eyes wrote:



I could make one change to the laws, it would be giving the team a choice of free kick OR scrum in event of knock on, forward pass etc so we can get on with the game!



Sounds like rugby league to me! NO!! The scrum is an integral part of our game and a  side who can scrummage should be rewarded by winning the ball. However the trend of using the scrum to win a penalty needs addressing.
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