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Redted View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 13:04
Did anybody manage to tune into this last night?
I could not get on and the link sent today does not play on any medium.
I heard the link 'crashed' after the presentation, so no questions answered.

Could anybody update as what was proposed?
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Halliford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 14:15
There were a lot of people on it. There were problems accessing it and the sound crashed with a few slides still to go. For Levels 3/4 there was nothing new, 14 team Leagues proposed with South, Central and North at Level 4 although the geography is still to be agreed. Second teams could enter Leagues in every Division and rise to Level 6, although how this would be done and it’s implications for paid players wasn’t considered. 

Reasonable approach but I didn’t feel the team had actually done much work for Levels 3/4 since November. More work for Level 5 down.

Left a big question mark about Level 2!
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 14:42
Have they looked at a map.
Do they know how far it is from Redruth to Canterbury?
Its 325 miles.
Tynedale is only 20 miles further from Caterbury!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 14:50
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Have they looked at a map.
Do they know how far it is from Redruth to Canterbury?
Its 325 miles.
Tynedale is only 20 miles further from Caterbury!



Yes, same distance if they had stuck to North and South.

Redruth are a major problem for any reorganisation - although West Country, and West Midlands might have been a better split given the M5. Leaving North and South East and East Midlands as the other 2 groupings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 16:31
South, Central and North at Level 4 although the geography is still to be agreed.

This would solve nothing very frightening and clueless idea, relieved to see the phrase 'geography is still to be agreed'.

West Country, and West Midlands might have been a better split given the M5. Leaving North and South East and East Midlands as the other 2 groupings.
Much more sensible in reducing travel - day trip for all games.

Redruth are a major problem for any reorganisation.
Typical London centric response.  The geography of the country is not Redruth's or indeed Cornwall's fault, we are part of the union!
This season if it happens Redruth will travel almost as far in N2S as they would have if promoted to Nat1!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 17:19
Originally posted by Redted Redted wrote:

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">South, Central and North at Level 4 although the geography is still to be agreed.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">This would solve nothing very frightening and clueless idea, relieved to see the phrase 'geography is still to be agreed'.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">West Country, and West Midlands might have been a better split given the M5. Leaving North and South East and East Midlands as the other 2 groupings.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Much more sensible in reducing travel - day trip for all games.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Redruth are a major problem for any reorganisation.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Typical London centric response.  The geography of the country is not Redruth's or indeed</span><span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;"> Cornwall's fault, we are part of the union!</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">This season if it happens Redruth will travel almost as far in N2S as they would have if promoted to Nat1!</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>


If you read my post properly, you would see I made exactly that point.

It is a geographical fact that Redruth is a logistical problem in any split - not there fault, but there are no other level 4 clubs in Cornwall or South Devon.

This means even there local game is a long way away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 11:42
The RFU Working Group has got no further really than agreeing 3 Leagues of 14 teams at Level 4. How they are split has yet to be thought about so the NCA has the opportunity to take the lead on this and hopefully it will following its AGM on 14th June.

The natural thing is to look at the motorway network rather than the RFU Divisional areas, IMHO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 12:01
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

The natural thing is to look at the motorway network rather than the RFU Divisional areas, IMHO.

It is, but you can only really do that, I reckon, as part of a total review of the geography of the CBs themselves. 

Well, you could do it in isolation, but that would be just storing up problems IMO. If you take the M5 as the obvious one, then that does create a totally logical axis for that part of the country (as a Mose fan who has lived in both Exeter and Cornwall and has strong links with Bristol a Midlands (roughly based on North Midlands) and West division would make perfect sense to me). However, to the east of it are a host of clubs that look west for their local associations etc that you might have to make look east to even the numbers up.

Basically Midlands and West leaves you with North, and South Other. Midlands and West would logically take in Devon, Cornwall, Somerset, Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, Staffordshire and Warwickshire. But then what do you do about Wiltshire? And Dorset would be a really marginal call either way. And Notts, Derbys and Leics would want to be in the midlands too probably.

Basically IMO we've got too many CBs and the boundaries are in the wrong place. We do need CBs (again IMO), but I'd rip up all the existing ones and start again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 12:14
The table below is a musing on how Level 4 might be split into North, M5 and M1. It assumes two teams down from National 1 - Tonbridge Juddians and Birmingham Moseley - for no particular reason and it pulkls up two teams from each of the Regional Premier Leagues based on last season's final positions. It would need a level transfer from North to M5 (Macclesfield) to make it work. This is entirely my own work which implies and imputes absolutely nothing! It's just a blue-sky thinkpiece!!

NORTH M5 M1
1 Rotherham Birmingham Moseley Bournville
2 Hull Ionians Stourbridge Loughborough Students
3 Fylde Luctonians Tonbridge Juddians
4 Sedgley Park Macclesfield Canterbury
5 Chester Redruth Bury St Edmunds
6 Hull Henley Leicester Lions
7 Wharfedale Clifton Worthing
8 Sheffield Tigers Esher Old Albanian
9 Tynedale Dings Crusaders Westcliff
10 Huddersfield Barnes Rochford Hundred
11 Blaydon Barnstaple Guernsey
12 Harrogate Newport (Salop) Hinckley
13 Sheffield Weston-super-Mare Wimbledon
14 Sandal Maidenhead Hertford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 12:32
Sensible enough - although disheartened to have been relegated!

Does kind of prove my point though - it's 6 miles from Moseley's ground to Bournville's, both of which are in the same city. So would be disastrous to be separated from a crowd pov. 

Oh, and Moseley are quicker and closer to the M1 than Bournville, despite being on the bit of the M42 that's basically a spur of the M5!

If it came down to it I'd want to be in the M5 group though.


Edited by billesleyexile - 05 Jun 2020 at 12:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 13:58
Not sure as Barnes would be thrilled - nowhere near the M5?

In light of previous post

Swap Barnes and Bournville would seem sensible.

Looking at the divisions it appears to me that M5 is a lot weaker than M1

It also seems to me that there would be no need to relegate TJs and B Moseley if the championship was increased by 2?

Edited by Raider999 - 05 Jun 2020 at 14:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 14:35
Blimey, it's a hypothetical example of how things might look, no need to be critical guys!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 15:26
Thanks Mark W-J! Sorry BillesleyExile, just took the 4th from bottom and one of the promoted teams. Sorry not to get your M-way link correct! Good point about Level 2 though, Raider999, that was an elephant in the room during the RFU nearly-webinar. Barnes is nearer the M40 than the M1, that links to the M5. Of course Guernsey could move depending on the cheapest flights - Gatwick or Leeds-Bradford?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 15:49
But that is going to happen somewhere - currently it is Licestershire where the split happens with one of two of the four sides (Hinkley, Leister Lions, Loughborough, South Leicester) going South and losing the local derbies.

As to the point of the CCB they run the county league and if we reain it - the County Championships
While the DOC run the regional leagues
And NCA run the National leagues

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 15:52
OK here was my attempt at a structure  - But I had expanded Championship and then lost National 1. I have 9 leagues at new level 4. Below that would be county leagues.
However, the RFu announcement suggested second teams would be permitted in the leagues and I think they would need to be allowed at the new level 4. Richmond 2 would stomp all over anything lower.




Championship














Saracens






Ealing Trailfinders






Cornish Pirates






Coventry






Ampthill






Nottingham






Jersey Reds






Bedford Blues






Doncaster Knights






London Scottish






Hartpury University






Richmond






Rosslyn Park






Rams






Chinnor






Blackheath











North

South West

South East
Darlington Mowden Park

Plymouth Albion

Old Elthamians
Sale FC

Cinderford

Cambridge
Rotherham Titans

Birmingham Moseley

Bishop's Stortford
Hull Ionians

Stourbridge

Canterbury
Caldy

Luctonians

Hinckley
Fylde

Taunton Titans

Loughborough Students
Sedgley Park

Redruth

Tonbridge Juddians
Chester

Henley

Bury St Edmunds
Hull

Clifton

Leicester Lions
Wharfedale

Dings Crusaders

Esher
Huddersfield

Old Redcliffians

Worthing
Tynedale

Bournemouth

Old Albanians
Sheffield Tigers

Bournville

Barnes
Otley

Barnstaple

Westcliff
SKiwifruithorpe

Bromsgrove

Sutton & Epsom
Preston Grasshoppers

Maidenhead

Guernsey








Borders White Rose Red Rose Central Marcher Peninsular Anglia Coast
Blaydon Harrogate Macclesfield Newbury Blues Drybrook Weston-super-Mare Kettering Wimbledon
Billingham Sheffield Newport (Salop) Bracknell Nuneaton Okehampton Bedford Athletic Dorking
Kirkby Lonsdale Sandal Bridgnorth Royal Wootton Bassett Broadstreet Brixham Peterborough Lions Tunbridge Wells
Alnwick Doncaster Phoenix Sandbach Havant Old Centralians Exeter University Syston Sevenoaks
Carlisle Rossendale Blackburn Banbury Dudley Kingswinford Ivybridge North Walsham Sidcup
Morpeth Burton Lymm Lydney Kenilworth Camborne Oundle Brighton
Kendal Paviors Wirral Oxford Harlequins Thornbury Exmouth Oadby Wyggestonians Guildford
Durham City Ilkley Burnage Marlborough Hereford Launceston Old Northamptonians Westcombe Park
Percy Park York Wilmslow Eton Manor Newbold on Avon Hornets Sudbury Camberley
Vale of Lune Derby Northwich Sherborne Ludlow Devonport Services Lutterworth Medway
Penrith Lichfield Altrincham Kersal Buckingham Keynsham Sidmouth Shelford Cobham
West Hartlepool Cleckheaton Firwood Waterloo Chippenham Rugby Lions Chew Valley Market Harborough Horsham
Keswick Moortown Birkenhead Park Windsor Old Patesians Bridgwater & Albion Peterborough Chichester
Aspatria Driffield Whitchurch Beaconsfield Worcester North Petherton Towcestrians KCS Old Boys
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 16:12
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

But that is going to happen somewhere - currently it is Licestershire where the split happens with one of two of the four sides (Hinkley, Leister Lions, Loughborough, South Leicester) going South and losing the local derbies.

As to the point of the CCB they run the county league and if we reain it - the County Championships
While the DOC run the regional leagues
And NCA run the National leagues




No county boards are responsible/run rugby in their county.

My club had several red cards, mostly at lower levels, a couple of years ago - the county boards response was a threat to deduct points from the premier team in the National Leagues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waltzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 21:43
Halliford,

Not bad, but in the North you seem to have forgotten the three teams that were relagated this year (Otley, Preston Grasshoppers and SKiwifruithorpe) who will all be keen to get "promoted" thi sseason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 22:01
Good point, Waltzer, I ignored the South teams as well. I don’t think it makes much difference, the same level transfer needed.

Camquin, good analysis! I suspect that Level 2 will actually go to 14 teams as that seems to come through very strongly in the RFU survey results for Levels 3/4. The NCA are insistent that there be 1 League at Level 3 but have accepted a 14 team League.

The current proposal will allow second teams to join the leagues but no higher than Level 6. Richmond are an exception, their second team is a Level 4 side and their third team a Level 4/5 team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 22:08
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Good point, Waltzer, I ignored the South teams as well. I don’t think it makes much difference, the same level transfer needed.

Camquin, good analysis! I suspect that Level 2 will actually go to 14 teams as that seems to come through very strongly in the RFU survey results for Levels 3/4. The NCA are insistent that there be 1 League at Level 3 but have accepted a 14 team League.

The current proposal will allow second teams to join the leagues but no higher than Level 6. Richmond are an exception, their second team is a Level 4 side and their third team a Level 4/5 team.

Don't they already have 2nd teams in the league (just in legal roundabout ways by "legally separate clubs") with London Irish Amateur, London Scottish Lions, Ealing 1871, Wasps FC, Saracens Amateurs, Harlequins Amateur, Sale FC, St Jacques and London Welsh Amateur (I know they're currently using the LW name but they were the second team) to name but a few who already skirt around the "no second teams" rule?  Not to mention the majority of Sussex 2 is made up of 2nd teams.



Edited by Robb - 05 Jun 2020 at 22:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddym Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 22:39
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

OK here was my attempt at a structure  - But I had expanded Championship and then lost National 1. I have 9 leagues at new level 4. Below that would be county leagues.
However, the RFu announcement suggested second teams would be permitted in the leagues and I think they would need to be allowed at the new level 4. Richmond 2 would stomp all over anything lower.




Championship














Saracens






Ealing Trailfinders






Cornish Pirates






Coventry






Ampthill






Nottingham






Jersey Reds






Bedford Blues






Doncaster Knights






London Scottish






Hartpury University






Richmond






Rosslyn Park






Rams






Chinnor






Blackheath











North

South West

South East
Darlington Mowden Park

Plymouth Albion

Old Elthamians
Sale FC

Cinderford

Cambridge
Rotherham Titans

Birmingham Moseley

Bishop's Stortford
Hull Ionians

Stourbridge

Canterbury
Caldy

Luctonians

Hinckley
Fylde

Taunton Titans

Loughborough Students
Sedgley Park

Redruth

Tonbridge Juddians
Chester

Henley

Bury St Edmunds
Hull

Clifton

Leicester Lions
Wharfedale

Dings Crusaders

Esher
Huddersfield

Old Redcliffians

Worthing
Tynedale

Bournemouth

Old Albanians
Sheffield Tigers

Bournville

Barnes
Otley

Barnstaple

Westcliff
SKiwifruithorpe

Bromsgrove

Sutton & Epsom
Preston Grasshoppers

Maidenhead

Guernsey








Borders White Rose Red Rose Central Marcher Peninsular Anglia Coast
Blaydon Harrogate Macclesfield Newbury Blues Drybrook Weston-super-Mare Kettering Wimbledon
Billingham Sheffield Newport (Salop) Bracknell Nuneaton Okehampton Bedford Athletic Dorking
Kirkby Lonsdale Sandal Bridgnorth Royal Wootton Bassett Broadstreet Brixham Peterborough Lions Tunbridge Wells
Alnwick Doncaster Phoenix Sandbach Havant Old Centralians Exeter University Syston Sevenoaks
Carlisle Rossendale Blackburn Banbury Dudley Kingswinford Ivybridge North Walsham Sidcup
Morpeth Burton Lymm Lydney Kenilworth Camborne Oundle Brighton
Kendal Paviors Wirral Oxford Harlequins Thornbury Exmouth Oadby Wyggestonians Guildford
Durham City Ilkley Burnage Marlborough Hereford Launceston Old Northamptonians Westcombe Park
Percy Park York Wilmslow Eton Manor Newbold on Avon Hornets Sudbury Camberley
Vale of Lune Derby Northwich Sherborne Ludlow Devonport Services Lutterworth Medway
Penrith Lichfield Altrincham Kersal Buckingham Keynsham Sidmouth Shelford Cobham
West Hartlepool Cleckheaton Firwood Waterloo Chippenham Rugby Lions Chew Valley Market Harborough Horsham
Keswick Moortown Birkenhead Park Windsor Old Patesians Bridgwater & Albion Peterborough Chichester
Aspatria Driffield Whitchurch Beaconsfield Worcester North Petherton Towcestrians KCS Old Boys

Think you left London Irish Wild Geese out of one of those leagues!
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