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ADULT COMPETITION REVIEW 2

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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2019 at 18:31
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

I agree the RFU are attempting to create a structure for everyone based on many assumptions which do not relate to every club and region. The first reality must be to understand that basing anything on the CBs is now outdated and geographical models need to look at miles traveled and not counties. For example Lancashire, Cheshire and Cumbria. It is convenience that matters not county. Many Cheshire clubs played North Wales Clubs on a regular basis as time traveled around 1 hour but now you cannot play them without the approval of the CB. 
If we take the radical approach of going back to friendlies the main problem with that is the structure is no longer available as the role of a fixture secretary has long gone. You would have to go back to before 1988 when clubs had a regular fixture list planned 5 years in advance by a good fixture sec. but this meant that clubs rarely moved out of their circle and moving up did not matter. Perhaps it does not matter , Top clubs stayed top and Junior clubs knew their place, only players moved. However if you take the North West for example pre leagues the top clubs were Liverpool, Waterloo, Manchester, Birkenhead Park, New Brighton, Wimslow, Old Birkonians Where are they now all at level 6 and below. In the pre league games clubs regularly played more that 30 games, my club played 44 games , cup and league in one season and I do not recall players complaining. One thing has changed is that 1st XV'S no longer go on tour , pre 1988 our club regularly went every two years. We have had one tour since , I believe that the players are missing something that was embedded in the ethos of rugby and they are the poorer for it
Change and reducing the games they play will not sort out the problem but my personal point of view 12 team leagues will be the end for many clubs who will only have 11 home games a season in 8 months which is 1/2 games a month.  




But 12 teams could free up space for local derbies, friendlies or tour games etc. Not everything has to be about league or cup rugby!

As to missing Fixture secretaries, the job was difficult because we didn't have emails or the intranet, both (as demonstrated by merit pools) make it a lot easier to arrange fixtures than in days of yore.


It is difficult to get pre-season friendlies, and when you do a number of players aren't available.

Friendliest in the middle of the season would be even less well supported by players (and spectators) in my opinion.
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Alfred View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alfred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 15:16
In my opinion each league from level 2 down to say level 5 should consist of 16 teams. There is no need whatsoever for national cup competitions such as the infamous Championship Cup. They do not normally attract a decent level of support anyway! As for the idea of more friendlies - no thank you. We need proper competition that means something!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentish Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 16:06
Totally agree Alfred but the only way we are getting that is via a special AGM.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2019 at 11:15
Steve Hill Coach of Richmond is talking up the reduction of the size of leagues so it would seem that the RFU have some support in making changes, I hope that the final outcome will not be 12 team regional leagues from level 3 down and a cup competition as I believe that would be the end of competitive rugby as we know it, already we have seen at Championship level sides playing each other 5 times a season which is pointless , why should crowds come to watch repetitive games. 
I believe that the minimum that clubs will accept is 14 team games and a split in level three followed by flat lining the levels below to get to county leagues by level 6 Some isolated Counties will still struggle and there will be a disparity in the level of competition leading to big scores and disillusioned clubs and players which has been partly off set by those counties who allow 2nd XV into the RFU leagues, unfortunately not every County does but I am not sure why.
We can only wait and hope that the RFU's extensive discussions around the Country comes up with the right answer.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2019 at 11:50
Aside from at a few clubs supported by sugar daddies, I do not believe semi-pro rugby could survive, so players will have to go back to playing for love.
Crowds - such as they are - will diminish.
All of which will lead to fewer boys will take up the game.

Aside from that it sounds like a great idea.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 09:14
Workerbee it sounds, after reading the Rugby Paper article, as if Steve Hill just wants less matches for players at levels 3 and 4 to stop them walking away from the game after playing successive seasons of that many games. I agree that cup competitions are not part of a solution. Many CB's do not allow 2nd XV's in RFU leagues as they are, I believe, concerned the bigger clubs will offer better facilities/support/administration to players at 2nd XV level and take them away from the smaller, local clubs 1st XV squads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 09:48
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Steve Hill Coach of Richmond is talking up the reduction of the size of leagues so it would seem that the RFU have some support in making changes, I hope that the final outcome will not be 12 team regional leagues from level 3 down and a cup competition as I believe that would be the end of competitive rugby as we know it, already we have seen at Championship level sides playing each other 5 times a season which is pointless , why should crowds come to watch repetitive games. 
I believe that the minimum that clubs will accept is 14 team games and a split in level three followed by flat lining the levels below to get to county leagues by level 6 Some isolated Counties will still struggle and there will be a disparity in the level of competition leading to big scores and disillusioned clubs and players which has been partly off set by those counties who allow 2nd XV into the RFU leagues, unfortunately not every County does but I am not sure why.
We can only wait and hope that the RFU's extensive discussions around the Country comes up with the right answer.     

A cup competition could work but you have to make it something prestigious. Have the final at Twickenham like the Intermediate Cup or something. Otherwise it becomes another glorified County Cup competition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 10:04
The problem with cup competitions is the fact that unless you just play teams at your level or one below they become a mismatch and just like County cups , many games will be conceded and therefore make the situation worse. In Cheshire now only 6 teams compete for the main competition. As in the Championship what is the point of playing the same team 4-5 times in a season. Unless you throw travelling into the mix.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 11:43
You cannot budget for a knock out cup.

Unless RFU pony up for travel and prize fund - and I have just seen a flying unicorn - you might get lucky, by which I mean lose at home keeping the gate and not paying your players a win bonus or for further rounds. Or you might be away every round, not getting gate money and having to pay travel and win bonuses.

Either way a lot of clubs have a lot of weeks without matches.
If there are 128 clubs in a knock out it takes seven weeks.
64 clubs have six blank weeks, 32 have five, 16 have four, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blutarsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 14:04
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

The problem with cup competitions is the fact that unless you just play teams at your level or one below they become a mismatch and just like County cups , many games will be conceded and therefore make the situation worse. In Cheshire now only 6 teams compete for the main competition. As in the Championship what is the point of playing the same team 4-5 times in a season. Unless you throw travelling into the mix.

I reckon Devon RFU have got it right as regards county cup - the results of games played between Devon teams at the same level count towards a mini-league, with the top two teams going into the final, top team hosts. 

Means only one extra game per season and no mismatches as all teams at same level. Retains prestige of the cup. 

Devon run 5 levels of competition, details here: http://www.devonrfu.com/2019-20_devon_senior_cup

This works well for Devon as there are six clubs at level 5 in the county. It does mean any NCA clubs are excluded. Plymouth and Exeter are not involved. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 17:33
If you take a look at the survey the RFU has offered to all via https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/adult-male-future-competitions-survey, you can view the various proposals for the league re-structure, none of which allows for the status quo in any way. Its a bizarre survey, even naming some of the existing leagues incorrectly (eg L6 London), and suggesting the key driver is to reduce the number of matches players play in the season, but then offering up play-offs and cups to...er.. increase the matches played back up to the existing number - lets all at least agree on one thing - if you win a league, you should be promoted as Champions and not have to endure a Play Off lottery at the seasons end! As suspected, the RFU intends to drive this re-org through come wind or high water for implementation in 2021-22 season, and even has the temerity to suggest the re-org is based on the collation of data from GMS across the leagues over 3+ seasons, when most leagues beneath L4 countrywide are only now using GMS for the first or second season. I love the section on the 12 Listening Panels in the intro - we have already 'outed' those panels on this forum as a complete farce, kind of 'listening but not hearing' panels really. It all feels like the RFU are sore their original ACR was kicked into the long grass a few years back, and is avoiding that possibility this time around by dictating what is going to happen across all levels. What price a further massive re-org in 3 or so seasons time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 19:12
ALthough there is no option for the status quo - there are two text boxes.
As far as I can tell they are not limited in length.
Use them to make your points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 19:35
I have written at length Camquin, for what it is worth!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 12:21
So did I - hopefully so will everyone else on the board.

Unfortunately, we may ask for different things and we may not get what any of us want.
But if you do not make your voice heard - you know you will be ignored.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 12:35
How were we meant to hear about the survey?

Made my views known lengthy and not complementary.  Also complained about the organisational shambles of the so called listening groups.  Fall on deaf ears no doubt as it did when I complained directly to the NCA and the RFU.
Had to give an opinion of options 3 & 4 in our section which only had 2 options!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 17:33
From all the folks I have spoken with in the National Leagues, there seems a desire for a reduction to a 26 game league and greater regionalisation. Across the levels beneath that, the only voices I have heard in favour of reducing the league matches from 26 to 22 come from vested interests within the various counties who would like to see the County Cups become a core part of the structure again. Not from players mind, this is from administrators. As I have said earlier, when London Cornish enjoyed an unbeaten 22 game season, the only time we strugged to fulfil a fixture was a National Cup Q/F...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 20:40
There aren't many players who post on RM - Blutarsky an exception I believe. But does anyone know enough Nat 1/2 players to be able to say whether (m)any of them like having 30 league games, with pre-season and any representative ambitions on top? I still think that's too many and the Steve Hill plan of 26 games is much better. Hopefully clubs could come up with some creative ideas and/or adjust their business models (potentially including the remuneration of players/coaches) to reflect the 13% reduction in home games...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 21:47
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

There aren't many players who post on RM - Blutarsky an exception I believe. But does anyone know enough Nat 1/2 players to be able to say whether (m)any of them like having 30 league games, with pre-season and any representative ambitions on top? I still think that's too many and the Steve Hill plan of 26 games is much better. Hopefully clubs could come up with some creative ideas and/or adjust their business models (potentially including the remuneration of players/coaches) to reflect the 13% reduction in home games...


Obviously a reduced number of games means less income and therefore should mean a reduction in players wages - I suspect most are paid on a per game basis anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2020 at 00:53
The fixed costs are not reduced by 13% - so players remuneration may drop by significantly more than 13%.

A player currently on £6k from 30 games might find they are offered £5k for a 26 game season. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kingsheathlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2020 at 09:57
https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/adult-male-future-competitions-survey

If anyone interested there is a survey on above site. 
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