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ADULT COMPETITION REVIEW 2

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BE57 REF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BE57 REF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 22:00
This was announced in the RFU's Community Game Update on 14 November which goes to constituency body and club chairman, secretary and treasurer. Very limited circulation and very short notice. Non-player registration is now closed across all venues. It looks suspiciously like a stitch-up (now where have I heard that before.....).

The Community Game update has a link to this document - not sure if this will work here or not!

The only way to get views across if not able or selected to attend a "listening panel" is to write to the organisers at competitions-development@rfu.com.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2019 at 18:17
Applied for the "panel" and got this response.

Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your interest in attending the upcoming listening panels. Unfortunately we have not been able to allocate you a place on this occasion. In selecting members for the listening panels we have tried to find a balance of volunteer roles and different types of experience.

The listening panels are not the only stage for players and club officials to provide feedback, nor will any decisions be made at the end of them. They are the first stage in the wider review, which will include the Community Game Board and RFU Council, before wider socialisation of the final options with the Game in the New Year.

For further information on the process and background of the work of the Adult Male Competition Structure Group please see this document.

If you have any further feedback please submit it to: competitions-development@rfu.com

 

Kind Regards,

Competitions Development Team

 

God knows what " socialisation" means. My spellchecker doesn't ! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 10:08
If anyone attending an event can report back here, that would be very helpful!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 12:41
Originally posted by DICKON DICKON wrote:

If anyone attending an event can report back here, that would be very helpful!
 
Same Email for me, apparently only 20 places per meeting are up for grabs and they are being quite selective and more towards the playing base, guess they figure listening to the been there/done that brigade (Sorry Dickon I'm including both of us in that) has little value so they want it direct from the Front Lines and not the Generals!
 
They will get differing views from players at the various levels so not really sure if it going to give them the insight they think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 10:02
Interesting developments in the latest round of discussions the "selected" groups are to be presented with three options for the restructuring of the leagues , the current structure will not be one of them. I looks as if the RFU have decided what they want and are determined to get it this time after the last botched attempt failed mainly because the Clubs did not want it. I am sure that after arbitrarily culling travel expenses off clubs to make traveling so expensive they hope that clubs will accept a structure which will mean only playing local clubs in reduced leagues, which will result in a drop in gate and bar income and eventually the folding of many clubs. Is that what they really want? Some leagues now have clubs only playing at home 11 times in a 30 week season. As for the idea that clubs want Cup rugby just look at the Championship and see how serious they take it with fringe players making up teams and low gates. Cup Rugby will never replace leagues and at level 4 and 3 a 16 team league works, clubs like it so why change? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 11:39
Ultimately, if the RFU drive this thru I can see more clubs breaking away from the Union.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 14:56
I would suggest that one of the most likely options they want to put through is to split Nat 1 into North and South 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 15:19
Originally posted by DICKON DICKON wrote:

Ultimately, if the RFU drive this thru I can see more clubs breaking away from the Union.

No one is going to break away from the RFU.  

The worse that will happen is clubs will form Regional leagues outside of the National pyramid. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 17:15
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

It looks as if the RFU have decided what they want and are determined to get it this time after the last botched attempt failed mainly because the Clubs did not want it. I am sure that after arbitrarily culling travel expenses off clubs to make traveling so expensive they hope that clubs will accept a structure which will mean only playing local clubs in reduced leagues, which will result in a drop in gate and bar income and eventually the folding of many clubs. Is that what they really want. 


I would take issue with a point you make as I believe you are not correct.
My club were promoted from N2N to play in National One this season. Our travel expenses have more than doubled at a time when the RFU assistance has been cut to next to nothing. This means having to find further money to pay to travel all over the country.
This also comes at a time when our attendance/gate receipts go down because when a Northetn club like us are promoted to Nat 1. we no longer have the more local derbies that we did in N2N.
Whilst it is great to play these clubs around the country, it is also a great burden financially and will carry on so until we get adequate RFU funding for Clubs playing below the Championship.
I would not knock 'regionalisation' below the Championship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 17:42
I would agree with you to a point but I would predict that when they do split National 1 it will be into 2 14 team leagues with a two match play off between the top team in each league for promotion into the Championship so most teams would lose two home games and all the income that would entail. There are far fewer Northern Nat 1 teams if you include Leeds for next season there would be 6 so the North National 1 would consist mainly Nat 2 sides. Sides like Sale , Rotherham, DMP , Birmingham Moseley and Hull Ionians would be very strong in comparison to the mid table Nat 2 sides thus reducing the quality of the games. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 21:47
More sensible option would be to merge Nat.1 and Nat.2 into a new level 3 of South West/West Midlands, South East/East Midlands and North. Play off for promotion, 3 league winners plus best 2nd place team.
This would reduce travelling, no need for overnight stays and keep up playing standards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 00:03
Oddly I suggested that here first time around. 

With nine division level 4 and then 27 county leagues and then further leagues below that as a way to reduce travel and try to maintain standards. Because just rearranging level 3 and 4 has no effect on travel for everyone else.- you do need to flatten the pyramid so most sides play locally.

I would have three second team leagues for level 2 and 3 clubs - with the Zoo league for London/SE and two others covering the rest of the country.

I think you need to permit second teams in the county leagues - but you might need a second tier of merit table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 08:10
So I've been informed that the meetings held in the North did not go to plan with a mixed bunch of invitees turning up and in some case only a handful of the expect list. That's hardly a quorum for views, sounds more like the RFU excuse preparation ...…….. "Well we did hold listening meetings and this is what we came up with...." 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Insignificant Tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 08:10
2nd teams need clubs to select their own levels as there are many mismatches in the Zoo league. Teams get hammered as their league is decided based on the 1st XV level and very few sides have strength in depth that reflects their 1st XV position. This results in not enough front rowers / players crying off as they don't want to get stuffed every week / too much travelling, so ironically what started out as a good idea to get 2nd teams decent competition and regular games turns into reasons not to play. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 10:37
With Level 6 leagues now looking at County leagues what do the rest want, only to play the next village? Cheshire already have three clubs in the Isle of Mann. What happens to them and in the South there is Jersey and Guernsey. The Northern leagues include teams like Anwick which is a 200 mile trip from Cheshire. Who would Redruth play in their local South West League. It is not easy to get a one structure that fixes all. In the North west the main problem is fitting in the Cumbrian clubs into the lower leagues but there are insufficient clubs in Cumbria to make a competitive league of their own but Lancashire clubs do not want to travel. 
I know the answer is not easy but to dumb down the leagues below level 2 will only lead to the loss of interest , certainly from the North as it is already losing ground on the London Clubs financially and we have had a breakaway already in the Northwest from RFU leagues although that could have been resolved if the RFU had not come up with this review.
It would seem that the meetings have been structured in such a way that clubs will not be included in the decision process. One has to ask who actually decided to call for the review and why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sidelined Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 13:18
I think it's generally accepted that the RFU want to split Nat 1 North/South. I wonder what they want to do with Nat 2, stay with what they've got or split Nat 2 down into regional leagues. 
If the later might they move counties around?
For example:-
Berkshire and Buckinghamshire to London& SE
Gloucestershire and Oxfordshire to Midlands

This would, basically, make the M4 the divide between North and South.
Moving counties to different regions could, probably, be done by the RFU without necessarily going through the review process.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 13:56
Told this weekend that a total of 4 people turned up for the listening panel at Old Albanians including 2 from the home club! Hardly listening to the community game. Also told that an NCA meeting last week was more concerned with size of leagues at level 3 and 4 than North/south split. 30 league matches-not a single Saturday off between beginning of September and end of December -was main topic with the majority of clubs stating a desire for less matches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 14:45
A sensible approach might be 

- phase changes in from end of season after this one, giving clubs at least some time to prepare/budget
- phase changes in level by level ie Level 3 in 2021/22, Level 4 in 2022/23 etc
- allow regions to determine own structure beneath Level 4
- remove county boundaries to allow leagues to be organised around distance
- host a few online presentations (a la the GMS intro ones) to see what is being implemented so that we can ALL see
- separately, start focusing on best practice at a national grass roots level rather than local one, so we can all share ideas on how to tackle common issues.

Richard -  I stand corrected. What I meant was that some clubs might go down the route of the Lancs leagues if the RFU get this wrong, which I would suggest is exactly what the RFU are hoping to head off with this review. Not breaking away from the RFU, but breaking away from the RFU league structure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 15:24
Lookig at yesterday's Rugby Paper, and the implications of a proposed expansion of  the Premiership woud not be to put the break below the Championship, but above it with the Chamionship relegated to the regional part-time tiers. 

How woould they do this? By expanding the Premiership outside England, generating two tiers of multi-national premiership.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentish Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 15:48
As a Chairmen of a club with 1600 members who returned the invitation to a meeting At Tunbridge Wells to review this within an hour of receiving I was disappointed but not surprised to firstly not to receive an invitation or a acknowledgement that I was not selected. A unprofessional approach from the CB to what in a commercial context are their customers. Another restructureing 
 where they think they have the answer without understanding the clubs issues, motivations and concerns, hopefully it goes the same way as the John Douglas review 3-4 years ago. 
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