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A glimmer and signs of club rugby coming back

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billesleyexile1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2020 at 10:42
Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

Super League Clubs were offered £16 mill over the summer,on very similar terms. Essentially,the money has to be repaid on very specific terms,so I believe the only SL club to take up part of the loan was Hull KR. Any Union clubs taking up the offer will have to demonstrate how they propose to repay the loans,together with guarantees etc. Essentially just helps with cash flow where there is a liquidity issue. The CVC money is on the line for Premiership clubs.

Yes, this is a very specific lifeline where with most of it clubs will only be given the money if they can show how and when they'll be paying it back. Was described quite memorably (although not so memorable that I can remember who said it) as a way of making sure your head bobs above the surface of the water now while attaching a length of chain and a millstone to your ankles.

The really big question (some) clubs need to ask themselves is, if their current ownership structure is likely to be looking for the exit in the next 5-10 years, what does taking on the debt now do to their bottom lines and attractiveness for new owners? 

For the avoidance of doubt, I stand by what I said yesterday that for some clubs this will be the right thing to do if it means they can continue trading, but it's not quite even a gift horse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2020 at 15:31
Originally posted by billesleyexile1 billesleyexile1 wrote:

Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

Super League Clubs were offered £16 mill over the summer,on very similar terms. Essentially,the money has to be repaid on very specific terms,so I believe the only SL club to take up part of the loan was Hull KR. Any Union clubs taking up the offer will have to demonstrate how they propose to repay the loans,together with guarantees etc. Essentially just helps with cash flow where there is a liquidity issue. The CVC money is on the line for Premiership clubs.

Yes, this is a very specific lifeline where with most of it clubs will only be given the money if they can show how and when they'll be paying it back. Was described quite memorably (although not so memorable that I can remember who said it) as a way of making sure your head bobs above the surface of the water now while attaching a length of chain and a millstone to your ankles.

The really big question (some) clubs need to ask themselves is, if their current ownership structure is likely to be looking for the exit in the next 5-10 years, what does taking on the debt now do to their bottom lines and attractiveness for new owners? 

For the avoidance of doubt, I stand by what I said yesterday that for some clubs this will be the right thing to do if it means they can continue trading, but it's not quite even a gift horse.




Good points, although I would have thought that the term of any loan would be short-term so would need to be paid back within a couple of years maximum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2020 at 19:38
As I said in the other thread I started, which Championship club wants to take on a loan to pay for a season without any income generation.

It is a double whammy pay for a season with debt.  Most clubs can’t break even, so how are they going to find the money to repay it back in the seasons to come. It would widen the gap in the league.

A £750k loan even interest free, if paid back over 5 years is £150k, a sizeable chunk of any playing budget.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 11:36
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

As I said in the other thread I started, which Championship club wants to take on a loan to pay for a season without any income generation.

It is a double whammy pay for a season with debt.  Most clubs can’t break even, so how are they going to find the money to repay it back in the seasons to come. It would widen the gap in the league.

A £750k loan even interest free, if paid back over 5 years is £150k, a sizeable chunk of any playing budget.


In the short term, it might be necessary to avoid extinction.

As for repaying the loan, clubs would need to limit their budgets accordingly, players would need to appreciate this and cut their salary expectations.

Ask yourself why most clubs can't break even - because they spend more than their income?

The alternative may be a lot worse.

Edited by Raider999 - 21 Nov 2020 at 11:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 12:00
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

As I said in the other thread I started, which Championship club wants to take on a loan to pay for a season without any income generation.

It is a double whammy pay for a season with debt.  Most clubs can’t break even, so how are they going to find the money to repay it back in the seasons to come. It would widen the gap in the league.

A £750k loan even interest free, if paid back over 5 years is £150k, a sizeable chunk of any playing budget.


In the short term, it might be necessary to avoid extinction.

As for repaying the loan, clubs would need to limit their budgets accordingly, players would need to appreciate this and cut their salary expectations.

Ask yourself why most clubs can't break even - because they spend more than their income?

The alternative may be a lot worse.

At the moment Blues do not have a squad, so you are asking them to sign players to be paid by a loan. I do not think clubs should be using loans to play a season in substitute as income. They should be using it to survive.

Not playing means clubs do not have all the other costs such as travel, medical issues, lighting, pitch maintenance etc. Before signing more players in the season. Playing increase costs

To a club like Ealing it works as the owner gets a period of interest free or cheap finance anyway, where he can probably make more money from it. The loan can be repaid on demand, others would suffer for years to come and what happens to any club that potentially gets relegated, then they may well disappear.

Blues do actually break even in a normal year. Perhaps this is where a financial fair play system should be introduced for rugby in all tiers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 15:55
What is a 'financial fair play system ' ?
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 16:15
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

What is a 'financial fair play system ' ?

Something that Ealing probably wouldn't like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 16:40
Please explain......if you can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 18:00
Basically you can only spend I think it is about 10% over revenue generated by the club (over valued sponsorship is looked at) averaged over a 3 year period or something like that.

It ensures clubs are a relatively sustainable proposition and not reliant on one person.

Those who overspend face sanctions, a lot like a salary cap but linked to turnover.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 18:05
Just found this regarding FFP in football 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 19:16
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Basically you can only spend I think it is about 10% over revenue generated by the club (over valued sponsorship is looked at) averaged over a 3 year period or something like that.

It ensures clubs are a relatively sustainable proposition and not reliant on one person.

Those who overspend face sanctions, a lot like a salary cap but linked to turnover.
That's about it, but sadly the EFL are fairly toothless in its administration and application (like most other things).
I fear the RFU would be much the same, even if it were adopted - which is extremely unlikely. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 19:30
Interesting concept but how would assess an organisation / sponsor who had committed to twenty plus years to Rugby. 
An individual who has created a long term legacy to Rugby with his scholarship scheme for young talent.

Would they invest in true commitment to better the game.
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 20:16
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Interesting concept but how would assess an organisation / sponsor who had committed to twenty plus years to Rugby. 
An individual who has created a long term legacy to Rugby with his scholarship scheme for young talent.

Would they invest in true commitment to better the game.


I think you will find this type of distortion is exactly what FFP was introduced to eliminate.

Basically it is a European Football attempt to stop teams like PSG, Man City and Chelsea from being underwritten by wealthy individuals/companies.

Of course where it falls flat is the fact that the FFP rules allow teams like Barcelona and Real Madrid to borrow so much money that they struggle to pay their players now they have little or no income.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 21:32
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Interesting concept but how would assess an organisation / sponsor who had committed to twenty plus years to Rugby. 
An individual who has created a long term legacy to Rugby with his scholarship scheme for young talent.

Would they invest in true commitment to better the game.

So money spent on academies and facilities amongst a few other things are exempt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2020 at 23:52
So all forty players in the first team squad are list as paid academy coaches.
Everything can be gamed, from the offside line to accountancy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 09:11
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

So all forty players in the first team squad are list as paid academy coaches.
Everything can be gamed, from the offside line to accountancy.

Then you apportion their time as coaches and players. Of course every player has the RFU coaching badges.  Also you could say you cannot have more coaches per academy squad than you have for your main squad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 12:13
Providing quality coaching to other entities is quite common and some seem to play lip service it it where others provide invaluable coaching to young players. I looked at the extensive coaching associations that Ealing Trailfinders offer and bumped into this.

Sports In Schools specialise in the formation and operating of community departments for sporting clubs and businesses. They currently successfully manage community departments at Coventry Rugby, Bedford Blues, Birmingham Moseley, Fylde Rugby and neighbours Richmond Rugby Football Club. 


Ealing provide coaching to Henley College ACE scheme, Duke of York Military school. St Josephs ( Lewis Ludlum`s old school ). The most promising being the link with Brunel University where Ealing have produced two new squad members from last seasons team.

The discussion was about the loans and grants and how they will be distributed. I believe there will be a complex application process and I doubt many Championship sides will take on more debt. There will be less attendance at sports grounds until the COVID pandemic is well and truly over and many fans will be lost to sport and especially rugby where the grounds are small and packed in shoulder to shoulder ( excluding Ealing Trailfinders before any else says it )

It may be it will be the loans and grants are solely on the clubs ability to generate income against expenditure. I believe the clubs with the biggest crowds may be unfairly penalised against because they `break even` 

Any grants should go to the struggling , low income clubs with the lowest gate and limited  revenue. Ampthill and District come to mind who more than hold their own on the rugby pitch but struggle to generate money via sponsorship.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 17:34
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Providing quality coaching to other entities is quite common and some seem to play lip service it it where others provide invaluable coaching to young players. I looked at the extensive coaching associations that Ealing Trailfinders offer and bumped into this.

<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">Sports In Schools specialise in the formation and operating of community departments for sporting clubs and businesses. They currently successfully manage community departments at Coventry Rugby, Bedford Blues, Birmingham Moseley, Fylde Rugby and neighbours Richmond Rugby Football Club. </span>
<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
</span>
<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
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<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">Ealing provide coaching to Henley College ACE scheme, Duke of York Military school. St Josephs ( Lewis Ludlum`s old school ). The most promising being the link with Brunel University where Ealing have produced two new squad members from last seasons team.</span>
<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
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<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">The discussion was about the loans and grants and how they will be distributed. I believe there will be a complex application process and I doubt many Championship sides will take on more debt. There will be less attendance at sports grounds until the COVID pandemic is well and truly over and many fans will be lost to sport and especially rugby where the grounds are small and packed in shoulder to shoulder ( excluding Ealing Trailfinders before any else says it )</span>
<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
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<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">It may be it will be the loans and grants are solely on the clubs ability to generate income against expenditure. I believe the clubs with the biggest crowds may be unfairly penalised against because they `break even` </span>
<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
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<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">Any grants should go to the struggling , low income clubs with the lowest gate and limited  revenue. Ampthill and District come to mind who more than hold their own on the rugby pitch but struggle to generate money via sponsorship.</span>
<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
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<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
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<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
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<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Ek Mukta", sans-serif; font-size: 18px; : rgb245, 245, 245;">
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Ampthill seems to have enough money, when you see how much they spend on foreign imports.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 42 minutes ago at 12:36
Outdoor sport to retuirn?

A ban on outdoor grassroots sport is set to be lifted in England when the national lockdown ends.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson will make a statement to the House of Commons on Monday unveiling plans for Covid-19 restrictions from 2 December, which MPs will vote on later in the week.

While parts of the tier system will be toughened, it is expected that outdoor grassroots sport will be allowed across all tiers.


Lisa Wainwright, chief executive of the Sport and Recreation Alliance, said it was "critical that a proportion of this money goes to the lifeblood of each sport at the community level".

She added: "It remains crucial that community sport and recreation is opened up as soon as possible to enhance the physical and mental health of the nation as we move out of the debilitating effects of lockdown.

"While this release of funding is a very welcome development, we should remember that many sports are not covered by this package and they remain in a perilous situation with clubs and community centres struggling to survive the latest restrictions.

"To this extent, community sport and leisure still stands on a precipice."



Edited by FHLH - 9 hours 41 minutes ago at 12:37
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 14 minutes ago at 13:04
About time too.
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